Building Masonic Knowledge - An In-Depth Discussion

In this episode, co-hosts Chris Crume and Matt Salyer interview Worshipful Brother Chris Weber, one of the District Education Officers of the 19th Masonic District, about leadership and how that is flourishing in central Ohio.  This extended length interview is one you do not want to miss!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

This is Beyond the Door, Exploring the Light of Freemasonry. Hello and welcome again to Beyond the Door, Exploring the Light of Freemasonry. I am Chris Kroom, and once again joined by my co-host, Matt Salier.

SPEAKER_05 0:26

What's up, party people?

SPEAKER_01 0:28

Well, today I think everyone is in for a treat. Number one, they don't have to listen to us talk that much today.

SPEAKER_05 0:37

Yeah, very limited in with us before we get into the interview.

SPEAKER_01 0:41

Yeah, and I think that's because, like he said, we're bringing you the full force of this interview with worshipful brother Chris Weber, one of the district education officers of the 19th Masonic District. You're gonna love this interview, and we just couldn't split this up and make it a two-parter. We wanted to bring this to you in its entirety.

SPEAKER_05 1:02

Yeah, there's a lot in here to get hand and footholds on just some very interesting conversations and frankly some takeaways.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

Lots of takeaways. Lots of takeaways from this. I think that the the pearls of wisdom in this one, y'all are really just gonna enjoy that.

SPEAKER_05 1:20

Yeah, no argument here. All right, everybody. As is usually the case, you get to hear me give you some of the upcoming happenings in the 19th district. So Tuesday, May the 5th, 2026, at 7:30 p.m., York number 97 is gonna have their stated meeting. I believe that's also Taco Tuesday. And Cinco de Mayo. Boy, confluence right there. Yeah, I'm pretty confident I know what we're going to be having for refreshments that night.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

I can only imagine. Sushi.

SPEAKER_05 1:53

Close. Close. It's it's gonna be a vegan menu. Fantastic. No, that is not fantastic. Nevertheless, Saturday, May 9th at 9 a.m., the district leadership program phase one will be hosted by Farmers No. 153. Also Saturday, May 9th and May 23rd from 9 a.m. to noon, the Licking County Historical Society will have the passport tours here at the Newark Masonic Temple. Saturday, May 16th at 9 a.m., that district leadership program, phase number one, will be hosted by Ohio No. 199. And then rounding out May on Saturday, May 23rd at 9 a.m., the district leadership program, phase number one, will be hosted here at Newark No. 97.

SPEAKER_01 2:45

Now we talk about that leadership program quite a bit, and that you know we're going to get into that in the interview quite heavily, but I can't say enough good about that, and I can't say enough about every Mason out there should get to these programs. It is absolutely fantastic, not just for your Masonic life, but your real life too.

SPEAKER_05 3:08

And I'm excited for this, right? I know that I always I wanted to get to it before, but life got in the way. And the fact that it's going to be here and local and it's going to be on a Saturday, that that for all appearances will work for me. I'm like I'm stoked that I get to do this.

SPEAKER_01 3:25

Again, yeah, it it was fantastic. Having gone through all three phases the last time that they were offered, you know, I took them at a time where I was getting ready to step into the East and I was kind of terrified. And this calmed me down and gave me that confidence to say, okay, I can do that. Serendipitous. It it really was. So get to any one of these three or all three of these, you know, you're gonna learn something just a little bit different from each one of them. I guarantee you that much having gone through a few of the phases each time when they hosted them. But you know, it talks about leadership, and that that's really what we're trying to instill and pass down.

SPEAKER_05 4:10

You know what we didn't get to in that interview that I think would be a good way to round those out a little bit here is the overall time commitment. The start is at 9 a.m.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

Yeah. So we're talking two hours for that, you know, for all these phases of this leadership program. It's two hours. We try to keep a pretty hard timeline with that too.

SPEAKER_05 4:29

Is it segmented? Like, so speaking for me, yeah, right. Let let's say that my kid has has a soccer game at 11 a.m. and I got to dip a half hour early. Is that doable or not doable?

SPEAKER_01 4:41

You know, if it if it's one of those, I would say you're probably gonna miss some good nuggets if you dip a little early. Now, again, we're all big boys, we're all, you know, adults in the room. Certainly you can get into take care of your family if you've got to go do something for work. Understandable. But I will say, if you can find a different time where it works better to get all two hours of that in, really get all two hours in because you, you know, you just don't want to miss any piece of it.

SPEAKER_05 5:12

Yeah. And and as I said, I'm my intent is to be there the whole time. So I'll use I was using myself as the uh as the example for maybe somebody who couldn't, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 5:22

Yeah, and one that's the great thing. Just because it's at Farmers 153 or Newark 97 or Ohio 199, you can go to any of them. You don't have to just go to your if it's your home lodge, you can go to any of those, right? And it's open for all Masons. That's that's the beauty of it, too. It's open for all Masons, any of the lodges in the you know, in the district, you can go and attend them at any, you know, any time. I think I I think my uh phase one was up at Mount Zion, if I'm not mistaken. Okay. So yeah, if you know you're sitting there going, oh, you know, crap, I'm a member of Ohio 199, but that date doesn't work for me. No worries. Come over to Newark 97 or go to Farmers 153. It it doesn't matter. You're gonna get the same content.

SPEAKER_05 6:09

But and and better to have as much as you can attend than not tend at all, is what I'm gathering.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

Absolutely. I would say yeah, get as much as you can out of it. But yeah, if you can make it to the whole two hours, you know, and it's it's gonna be fast. It's fast-paced. It, you know, you're really gonna get a lot of information in there. It's it's you know, we talk about in the internet apprentice degree, it's kind of like drinking from the fire hydrant, right? It's kind of like drinking from a fire hydrant with this. You know, there's a lot of information really packed into that, which really makes it, again, something you can use Masonically, but also something that you can use in your real life too, which is is fantastic.

SPEAKER_03 6:49

Okay. Stuff.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

So with that, we're actually gonna go ahead and kick it over now to our interview with Worstful Brother Chris Weber, one of the district education officers for the 19th Masonic Jurist or 19th Masonic District. There it is. There it is. Well, it is my distinct pleasure to have Orshville Brother Chris Weber, one of our district education officers for the 19th Masonic District, here with us in the Newark 97th Masonic Temple podcast studio. So Worshull Brother Weber, welcome. Well, thank you. Thank you both very much. Very happy to have you. Yeah, happy to be here. We've been waiting a while to get you in here, especially, you know, you know, a DEO as well. We're we're just thrilled. And I guess I'll jump right in. So, first off, tell us a little bit about yourself. You know, who are you outside the lodge? You know, usual vocation, your hobbies, things like that.

SPEAKER_06 8:00

Yeah, I'm just a guy, right? I've been married to my wife Heather for 28 years, two sons, Corey and Kevin, married to Whitney and Megan, and have what five grandkids, six one on the way. Oh, congratulations. Thank you. June 20th, I think. And I have a daughter who got married last September, Caitlin.

SPEAKER_05 8:22

That sounds expensive.

SPEAKER_06 8:27

Painful. But I'm not on government chi. So yeah, it worked out. Yeah, when I saw the neon sign with their name, I'm like, what are we doing, babe? What are we doing? What do you do with a neon sign after the wedding? But you know, outside the lodge, I enjoy my love golfing with my dad. He's 84 years old, still very active. So we went Friday and uh enjoy that. My two sons and he and I will go occasionally. Really enjoy high school and college baseball with my uh former coaching buddies. Uh, I coached high school baseball for 25 years. Oh, nice. So, you know, being around them, just watching a game maybe a little differently than some of the spectators, but enjoy the heck out of that. Who's your college team? Uh you know, I don't, it's not Ohio State, unfortunately. However, the you know, the new guy's kind of turning it around a bit. We'll see when they get into Big Ten play. My nephew pitched at Vanderbilt. Okay. Have a great deal of respect for Tim Corbin and the way he does things. So I used to just really enjoy Augie Garrito before he passed, who was kind of put Cal State Fullerton on the map in the midst of USC and UCLA and all the, you know, the larger schools. Really enjoyed him as a coach, just kind of listening. But uh, have had the opportunity to meet several pretty prominent coaches and just listen and hear them. But my wife and I enjoy blue jackets games. We we go, I don't know, a handful of times a year. Not enough to buy a package, but just when we want. We enjoy going date night, man. You know, I'm busy with Masons and work and travel and some of those things. So it's important to strike that balance at home because she supports this completely, or otherwise I wouldn't be doing it. Because she's the center of my universe. She's my why. Yeah. So, but other I'm probably boring. And we have a big backyard that you guys are welcome to anytime with a huge deck and large TV. So we enjoy that in the summertime, spring, when weather permits. But yeah, I'm just like anybody else.

SPEAKER_05 10:51

If I were to jump in your car right now, turn over the engine, what genre of music is playing on the radio? Classic rock.

SPEAKER_06 10:58

All right.

SPEAKER_05 10:59

Oh, that's it.

SPEAKER_06 11:01

Broad. Broad. When I left the car, it was Tom Petty. Okay. Free falling.

SPEAKER_03 11:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 11:07

Or free fallen.

SPEAKER_03 11:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 11:10

Yeah. I mean, but I've if you listen to my playlist on my phone, you'd probably be shocked, disappointed, and impressed. We get that a lot, actually.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

I love it. Yeah, we what would it change from? So you got Tom Petty, then what's coming up next?

SPEAKER_06 11:28

Maybe Snoop. All right. Yeah. A little bit of that. No. Love it. Got some Jimmy Buffett. I've kind of taken a liking to Steely Dan. Oh. I don't know why. But yeah, uh country, you know, Hank. I mean. Oh yeah. Okay. Oh, yeah, it is diverse. I'll say it that way.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

That that that sounds a lot like my playlist. You've you've heard some of those before. I have indeed. Where I go from, you know, maybe Sleep Token to Snoop to Aerosmith.

SPEAKER_06 12:02

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, mowing the art's fun. You can kind of tell by the lines what came on.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

Oh, he was really into that one. Look at it veering to the right.

SPEAKER_05 12:18

Completely off-course air drumming.

unknown 12:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 12:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

But there goes the flower bed. Gotta watch the flower beds, guys. I I will know that pain shortly, but not just yet. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 12:35

It's just one more thing, man. One more thing. Yeah, I know. It's a labor of love. It it can be. For my wife. It can be, but then uh for me at least, it's one more thing to try and keep the kids out of.

SPEAKER_06 12:49

Oh, yeah. Well, grandkids. But they're not keep them in the back. We're pretty good shape.

SPEAKER_01 12:56

Just keep me out of it. That's probably the oh yeah.

SPEAKER_05 12:59

You're gonna be you're gonna be persona non grata in the in the garden. That's what will happen. It will just be No Chris is allowed. Correct.

SPEAKER_06 13:07

Yeah. Yeah. And I think you would see the same sign in my front or backyard. My job is to go to 10 bucks and like it.

SPEAKER_05 13:17

Right. The mowing needs done, stay away from my stuff.

SPEAKER_06 13:23

Well, I you know, I think as we were talking too, I don't know if I caught what do you do for a living outside of the I work for a company, a logistics company called ODW Logistics, Ohio Distribution Warehousing. It was founded in 71. I've been there for 10 years. Left a position at Worthington Industries to go there. And I am in charge of physical security and safety for all 30 sites, hence the travel schedule that can be a bit heavy at times. But, you know, it's enjoyable. Got 2,000 people and 30 distribution centers that I'm responsible for.

SPEAKER_03 14:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 14:02

So I enjoy it. You know, I really do like the people. I like the people I work with, with work for. And I enjoy kind of trying to develop the next, kind of replace yourself to steal a phrase we are all familiar with here.

SPEAKER_04 14:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 14:19

Because I don't know how long I'll do it, but as long as I add value and enjoy myself, I've got a lot of latitude, so I love that. But yeah, it's it's challenging. Human behavior is as unpredictable as anything on this earth.

SPEAKER_05 14:36

I was gonna say, I've I have friends that are somewhat in that industry, and I've heard that uh it's somewhat cyclical. The big event will happen on the news, and all of a sudden it's all hands on deck, and they're going over their SOPs and really looking at, you know, whether or not they need to hire third parties and then other, and then the spin gets real high, and nothing's really hit the headlines in a while, and it just kind of moves a little bit.

SPEAKER_06 14:59

Yeah, as you we get into the e-commerce world, the influencer effect. You know, we have makeup products in California that are tied to Alicia Keys and some others, which are not on my playlist, by the way. But they can put a tweet out and boom, it just blows up, you know, so you gotta accommodate that. But it's uh it is a challenge operationally, but we're blessed, you know, we're kind of booming, yeah, growing when maybe others aren't growing as much, but uh it has its own set of challenges. Yeah, but what's life without a challenge?

SPEAKER_05 15:44

I know.

SPEAKER_06 15:45

I mean it's boring, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:48

Iron sharp sharpens iron, iron does sharpen iron. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

Well, let's see. Yeah, I boy, as we continue to lay a maybe just dig in a little bit on you know, the person behind the apron.

SPEAKER_06 16:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

Books or movies and why?

SPEAKER_06 16:05

You know, it's that was a great question. I enjoyed it. Because a movie's easy, right? But I don't know that anything beats a good book. You know, one that you really you kind of have to, you know, I gotta get to bed at some point, right? 10 o'clock, 11 o'clock, but you can't wait to get back to it for whatever reason. Right now I've got a book by Lieutenant Colonel Robert Darling. I had a chance to spend some time with him in Dallas. He was actually in the president's bunker on 9-11.

SPEAKER_03 16:37

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_06 16:38

Yeah. Yeah. And his perspective was unique because most of what he was dealing with, he was shoulder to shoulder with oh, the vice president Cheney. Yeah. And his impression of him, very high, in fact. But his words, not mine, a stone cold killer, right? He was able to compartmentalize the events as they were unfolding. Because if you remember, President Bush was in Florida speaking at that elementary school. And so Cheney was there, Condoleezza Rice spoke to Putin during the whole thing. Wow. Because we went, what was it, DEF CON 3 or something, you know, where we enabled potential weapons.

SPEAKER_04 17:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 17:28

And uh Putin called to let him know that hey, we're gonna hold, we understand what happened. Wow. But it it is a remarkable book, it's a quick read.

unknown 17:38

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 17:38

I enjoyed leadership books, yeah, because I think leadership, and we'll talk about that, I think that's a skill, Matt, as you alluded to, and it has to be agile, right? You can't be the same leader to all people. Yeah, you kind of have to find out where, how you reach them, what motivates them. And so I enjoy those. I had a chance to spend some time with Patrick. Oh, I can't remember his last name. Staying humble, he wrote it. Patrick Hall had a chance to spend some time with him in Dallas. Super smart guy, and really not an author by trade. He'd just done a good job of creating high-performing teams. So he did, he put pen to paper and read and wrote the book. Again, a quick read, but really valuable. I mean, there's a lot in there to take away. But I think a good book, typically, last night my wife and I played uh Netflix roulette. There's so much on there. What do you choose? Oh, that sounds like dangerous. It can be. And I'm not saying at times I don't cheat to get it, you know, but she knows exactly. She's got her list. I just want to be entertained. Give me two hours, hour and a half.

SPEAKER_05 19:00

So how do I have not done this? How does one play Netflix roulette?

SPEAKER_06 19:05

Well, you pick a genre, a genre, and you just kind of scroll and stop. What do you think, hon? All right. I can't remember what the one was yesterday, but it was interesting.

SPEAKER_05 19:18

This is less dangerous than I assumed. Okay. Oh, yeah, yeah. There are controls. Yeah, I I had this terrible feeling. Your eyes were closed and your finger was on the bone. You just picked something. Right. And it's one of those like bachelorette style, like I can't, there's no way. I can't do it. Yeah. Can't do it. Won't do it. You only have so much time and you're not throwing any of it at that. At least that's my take on it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 19:44

No. I I I will not devote any time to something that doesn't interest me. Can't do it.

SPEAKER_01 19:52

Same here. You know, going off of the books thing, what what's on your Masonic bookshelf too?

SPEAKER_06 20:00

Well, with my involvement in the district leadership program, I spend a great deal of time on the Masonic Trinity, you know, the code, officer's manual, and ritual. Because I have to challenge myself in a position as a DEO, as a worshipful master, as anybody in a lodge, right? We have to continue to push ourselves to get into the book for the ritual specifically, to learn the charges, the lectures, you know, that are important. And I know we'll talk more about that, but even the questions you field, you know, about this or that, there was it was it must have been a theme because there were a couple different lodges that were balloting and didn't know how to ballot. I mean, you know, not according to the code. And it all came down to a debate about whether or not you actually salute when you ballot. And I in the officer's manual it spells it out clearly. And it's not make or break, right? But it's the process. And we have to be in love with the process as much as we are, you know, great, we got a favorable report on our inspection. If you embrace the process in anything you do, particularly masonry, your outcomes will take care of themselves. You put the time in to practice, rehearse, and you understand your role and you excel at your role and you work to excel at your role. Well, when inspections come, yes, there are more people in the in the room. But if you can just kind of bring everything internally, you'll be fine. You will be fine. But those three things have dominated my time.

SPEAKER_03 22:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 22:00

In the last couple years. But it's a good thing because I need to be better at it. I need to know.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 22:07

I want to know.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Same here. I something I continue to try to work at as well as reading up on those. It's that's kind of why we gave everybody, all the officers, that code book and officers manual is part of the and it's part of their stuff.

SPEAKER_05 22:21

Trevor Burrus, Jr. It's been invaluable at least for me because once upon a time I was reliant on going to Grandview to try and look these things up. And it that was time consuming. So just having it where I could just open it real quick and and reference was was wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 22:38

And that quick find index is probably the best tool ever.

SPEAKER_06 22:41

Well, and it's been updated, so I think it's now even serves us better. You know, the it was somewhat outdated.

SPEAKER_04 22:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 22:49

And most of the time it'll get you close. In the dugout, maybe not to the plate, but so look a little bit. You know, it it's it's our constitution. Yep. Right? We've all heard it called that. It's what we were founded on. And I think there's great discussion about some of the things in there. You know, that's so old. Well, so's the fraternity. You know, so it's up for interpretation. There are gray areas, you know, but I think to be able to point somebody, teach them the fish instead of consistently handing them a fish. I mean, as a district education officer, that's how I see it, is point them in the right direction, show them, help them, support. But yeah, those three things right now take up a great deal of my time as we continue to expand that district leadership program here in the 19th district.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

And if you haven't done that yet, I know there's some coming up, and we'll have those in, we've talked about those in our calendar earlier, but I would highly encourage everyone to get to that, every Mason to get to that. It's valuable. I know which one I'm going to. I I can only imagine. Maybe the one that's at Farmers? Close. Very close. I I thought so.

SPEAKER_05 24:14

Newark. You much closer.

SPEAKER_06 24:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 24:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 24:19

We're doing one in his backyard. You know, the books and everything else that comes with it are critical. We need to be good stewards of that knowledge so that we pass it on as it was passed along to us. But as much as that, to me, masonry is about relationships. And when you talk about, you know, the things you review or view, you know, it's we have so much knowledge in our midst in any lodge that we go to. And I want to tap that consistently because those are folks that one they may know it, but it sends me into the book to trust but verify, which just reinforces either a viable resource or maybe, hey, real quick, let me show you something. Yeah. Because we can always learn. We can always learn. I've helped a 33rd degree that is a master in another lodge in a different district, but a plural member at one of ours. And he wasn't sure about something. And man, I need to get better. No. Look, we all share the light. We all share the light. Nobody owns it. Nobody's perfect. Nobody's got a down pat. But if we know where to look and we're willing to share, you know, rising tide lifts all boats.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 25:48

Yeah, that's the one thing that I've noticed is getting people into that. I mean, I myself was guilty of it for years. I I focused primarily on that ritual book in terms of what it is that I needed to do. And it was only when the the brethren saw it fit to elect me to more advanced roles within the laws that I was like, okay, you got to get it together. Something I wish I'd done earlier. Getting into the code and the officers' manuals.

SPEAKER_04 26:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 26:15

It's hard to say I don't know, but you have to be willing to do that and then look for it together.

SPEAKER_01 26:23

So I know that was something that actually that's something I learned from you. You talked to me about that as I was getting ready to go towards the East, and I spent a lot of time that summer, like reading the code book front to back, back to front, at least twice, just so I had at least anything knowledge. I led by example of what not to do.

SPEAKER_06 26:46

I remember, I don't know that that's fully true.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

But you know, but you again, we learn, we still learn, right? I learned, hey, I need to, you know, I need to know this stuff so that I'm not always asking. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 27:01

Well, it it's you don't get the introduction to it the way that you do ritual, right? When you think about our proficiency exams, it's not as if that is accompanied by parts of the officer's manual or parts of the code book. You're you're starting to be immersed in the ritual aspects of this fraternity very, very early. The code comes much, much later, and usually only after introduction from a more seasoned brother. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 27:27

Yeah. And we all move to that station eventually. And you want to be that resource for that person you may have raised when you sat in the east. Yeah. Yeah. Or that person that you passed while you were sitting. You know, we want to be a resource. That resource, there's a gentleman that was at Potascal, he's since passed. But Bob Morgan, you can take it out if you need to, but he was a pillar, and we all have them. But he spent so much time in the officer's manual, in the code book, and he he knew it. And so you would I would gravitate towards him. You know, there are other mentors, and we all have them, that have passed that same test. You know, they tell you something, you kind of look it up just to be sure. And I gravitate towards those people, but I want a bigger circle. You know, there's they're out there.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

Yeah. You know, that that thinking of those mentors that are, you know, that you think about that they know that code it reminds me of Richard. Richard Lewis. Oh, yeah. Yep. He I mean, he's gonna he's probably forgotten more than I'll ever know in my entire life about Freemasonry. How'd he do that? Because he studied it.

SPEAKER_06 28:45

He he made a commitment to it. And we may or may not have the same amount of time that another brother has to commit to it, but we have to make a commitment to it, whatever that allows. And it doesn't have to be everything. Yeah. But there are things that come up throughout the year.

SPEAKER_05 29:04

Well, I think was it you, Chris, that said earlier rising tide raises all ships, lifts all ships. Sorry, it was it was other Chris. So you've got which one? You've got your pick. Yeah, this is this is gonna be very confusing for me. But no, I I think I think that actually is true also about the brethren around you, right? Because you can absorb some of this through simple osmosis and repetition. So if if only two out of the ten guys in the room know what's going on, you're maybe not going to get that really rapid education that you would if eight of the ten knew, and it was only two that had to really pay attention.

SPEAKER_06 29:42

Yep. Why is it two? Not all ten, you know what I mean? Well, right. And that's where I see myself in trying to be one of those two, six, whatever it is, not because I want to be looked at or with any esteem or anything, but just as somebody that if somebody has a question, I'll help. I'll help. I'll support you.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

Absolutely. I think that's well, I think that's what we should all strive for, really. That should be everybody's goal to help in some way. Maybe you're not going to be the best ritualist, but maybe you can help in another way. Maybe you're, you know, maybe you're the party planner. Maybe you're fantastic at that. Senior deacon, whatever.

SPEAKER_06 30:25

I mean, there are things that we can all contribute. We can't be afraid of a challenge. We have to embrace that. And we have to have a s a resource for support. Yeah. Somebody to go to, hey, can you help me with this part of this lecture? And they'll get you through it.

SPEAKER_05 30:46

Absolutely. I it keeps coming back to mentorship for me. Yeah. Yeah. It really does. It it can be peer mentorship. It can be some again of the more seasoned brethren, but this this it it's come up several times that really mentorship and extending your hand to the rung that you just left.

SPEAKER_06 31:07

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:08

Is kind of paramount to keeping this thing moving forward.

SPEAKER_06 31:12

As we reach and they reach back two years, five years down the road, somebody else is going to reach. Yep. The person that we helped, the person that we maybe supported, because they'll have that sense of confidence. I'm not worried that, you know, so-and-so told me this. Yeah. And he was a great guy, but the the information is there. And it, I don't know why it feels so daunting. You know, why we don't cause it to be read in Lodge and those kinds of things.

SPEAKER_05 31:48

I actually have a question for later. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 31:51

I'll bet you do. It it can be dry. I mean, it is a cool book. Yeah, absolutely. It's absolutely in a in an English language that if rewritten, we may not write it the same today.

SPEAKER_05 32:12

I I have comments about modern slang that I could make jokes about, but I I very much understand what you mean. Yeah. So is that if you that code book. Obviously, ritual is kind of paramount to everything that we do in here. That's how we pass on what we pass on. But that code book would you would you say that's the single piece of media that is the most important, at least in your own opinion, something in terms of what you would recommend to a younger brother?

SPEAKER_06 32:47

I would probably steer him to the officer's manual first. Okay. And here's why. Because that has a more immediate impact on what role you may have or are assuming. It's easier to take in. It's a little easier to digest, find things, but it's all supported by the code. So everything goes back to the code book in my mind.

SPEAKER_05 33:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 33:14

If you see it differently, I'm interested.

SPEAKER_05 33:16

No, I d I don't disagree. That that one's kind of you know, facts and nothing but the facts.

SPEAKER_03 33:24

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 33:25

Anything philosophical that kind of uh tripped your trigger.

unknown 33:31

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 33:33

Tons. Right.

SPEAKER_06 33:34

I mean nothing adverse, nothing that I couldn't get my mind around or or underst once I understood clearly support, but there are things that raise questions, and they should. Right. As we learn and understand anything, we should be moved to curiosity. I try and live in the world of curious instead of the world of elation or frustration.

SPEAKER_05 34:05

I probably asked that poorly. I meant in terms of media. Any any essays or books or even movies that that struck you as Masonic in some way, even if they weren't overtly Masonic.

SPEAKER_01 34:21

National Treasure doesn't count, right?

SPEAKER_03 34:23

No.

SPEAKER_06 34:24

Probably not. Probably not. Raiders of the Lost Ark are out.

SPEAKER_01 34:30

An entire movie where the main character doesn't actually apply to the plot. You could take him out and he'd still end up the same way.

SPEAKER_06 34:39

You know, I've watched a lot of the documentaries because I'm curious about. And I don't, I don't espouse necessarily the profane as we see it used, right? Just because you're not a Mason. Maybe it's my lack of understanding. I understand the definition, the broader definition. But what is it about Masonry that causes people to feel a certain way, totally anti-or you know, blindly devoted to? I mean, I'm a Mason and I'm proud to be. Very proud of the people I've met and to serve in whatever role I can to promote, support other lodges, other brothers. But I don't know if I can tell you one right off the top of my head that I point to and think this made the difference to me. Because the medium that made the most difference to me was the mentor.

SPEAKER_04 35:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 35:42

You know, the person that I could go to and ask questions, silly questions, relevant questions, and have dialogue. You know, when I'm watching something, I'm just taking it in.

SPEAKER_04 35:54

Yep. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 35:55

And I don't have that opportunity to interact or say, wait a minute, hold on a minute. I want to ask about that. But I find it interesting, uh, the the very diverse opinions of masonry, which really in its simplest forms is kind of benign. I mean, but there are stigmas from days gone by, you know, religious, and I guess I don't necessarily see that. I can understand it. I can understand it. Yeah. But I myself don't see it. And I don't know that I'm numb to it or not willing to hear it. But I I just haven't experienced it.

SPEAKER_05 36:41

Yeah, I've I've not personally seen anything in my life either from anybody who is overtly anti-Masonic, right? Yeah. And honestly, I s I just assume, and perhaps wrongly, that they're they're actually ignorant of the order. Because it, in my estimation, having been here for some time now, there's nothing nefarious.

SPEAKER_06 37:03

No.

SPEAKER_05 37:03

Right. And I'm just a I'm just a voice probably coming to you through headphones right now. You don't know me from Adam, but yeah, there's uh in my mind, there's nothing nefarious here of any kind.

SPEAKER_06 37:16

We promote the fraternity because of the good we we know that it can provide to others. Yeah. You know, whether it's charity. I love the fraternity because of the brotherhood. And we'll talk about that a little bit. Yeah. But I try to, you know, it's tough. Even in my job, right? Security, physical security, you got to put your mind in a headspace. Okay, where's our points of vulnerability? What are we susceptible to? It's not easy. So when I my my point is when I hear these opposing opinions, you know, I again go to curious and I wonder why. Why, why do they believe that? And to your point, Matt, that they probably don't know what they don't know. It's been passed on from somebody. And if they said it, it must be true.

SPEAKER_04 38:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 38:12

And I think you could say that with just about anything. I mean, we are so quick to pick sides on any subject.

SPEAKER_05 38:20

The grade school game of telephone. The first person it's a strawberry. The first person, it's a strawberry, and by the end of the class, it's a Kia.

SPEAKER_06 38:28

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's where I guess I want to stay curious because I'm interested to have the dialogue.

SPEAKER_04 38:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 38:37

Not many with opposing views want to do that, but I've had that opportunity with people. Oh, I can't do that. I'm a member of Knights of Columbus. Really, tell me more. Yeah. You know, I I don't I don't know the why. Tell me the why. I I don't know. I'm not playing fool and I'm not trying to be coy. Just help me understand.

SPEAKER_01 38:58

Well, I mean, that's kind of where my dad actually came from on it. I mean, he grew up Catholic. And it wasn't until I had joined that he's like, oh, he's having fun doing this. Now he's junior warden in his life. Yeah. So if you're listening, get to planning for your year because it's coming up quick. So yeah. But that's a whole nother thing that's just out to my dad. So he'll understand what I mean. Yeah.

unknown 39:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:26

You know, backing up just a little bit with some of our Freemason stuff, yeah. What is your Masonic origin story?

SPEAKER_06 39:35

I came in. Well, where it started, my wife Heather and I were walking down the midway at the bustling Potascala Street Fair. And I got out of coaching after 25 years in 2016. And man, I missed, you know, sitting on a bucket in the dugout. Okay, Chris, what are we going to do if he if he can't get us and out here to start the inning? What do we do? Just that the rides to and from, the camaraderie, the brotherhood, if you will, with the coaches that I was fortunate enough to coach with. And it left a it was something was missing, something tangible. I felt it. Because while I still see these gentlemen that I was fortunate enough to coach with, it wasn't every day. Yep. And it was every day. And it just kind of left a hole. And I did not know how it wasn't something that anybody else would know, my wife and I, but I felt it. And I saw Fred Goldstein in the booth, the Mason's Potascala 404 Mason's booth. And we kind of walked by and I said, Hold on a minute. I want to, I just want to check it out. What is that about? You know, I'm familiar with some of the other fraternal organizations. Member of the Elks Lodge right over here, but only socially. And I needed something more than that.

SPEAKER_04 41:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 41:02

And so I talked to Fred for a little bit, and you know, he and a couple other brothers. We talked. I went to the lodge once and talked because I didn't know much about masonry. I had no knowledge of anybody in my family, either side, maternally or paternally, that they were masons. But talked to Fred. He told me a little bit about it. And uh, you know, I'm interested. And it was the right decision. It was the right decision for me because I found that now. You know, I'm here today with two guys that I care about personally as well as in the in a lodge. And so I've I've found that. It's filled that void. And as you get, as you grow your world in masonry, you know, you hear a lot of people say you get what you put into it. Well, I don't know what that means exactly. I want to know what you put into it, but that's another topic for another time. But yeah, and so I was initiated in April of 17, I believe. So it just passed eight years. And I've you know, I've served in many different roles within the lodge, but yeah, that was that was my start, a street fair midway in Potascala.

SPEAKER_01 42:25

But I think that's important because I think it does show that everybody comes in different ways, right? I mean, I think both of us came through family. Yours was, you know, yours was through the street fair and potascola. I think my dad, he came through to it through family, but in a much different way than most people come to it through family. Usually it's fathers passing it to sons. Yeah. This was son passing it to father, which was really kind of cool. So, but it, you know, it it shows that there's different ways to get into this. And there's no one right path.

SPEAKER_06 42:59

No. You know, it's an individual journey.

SPEAKER_01 43:02

It is, yeah, exactly. And and then again, I I look at it as it's the way that we evolve and how we talk to people about it, too. Being at a street fair, in fact, I've probably stopped by that booth at least once in Stormtrooper Armor. So I I don't remember who was manning it at the time, but I do remember stopping by. You'd remember if it was Fred Goldstein. It it was I don't think it was Fred. Probably not. Probably not. But again, it shows that need for the evolution of how we reach out and how we have our messaging. Because again, you know, here we are sitting on a podcast talking about this, right? Would that be something five, 10 years ago that would have even been done? Maybe, maybe not.

SPEAKER_06 43:42

Yeah. Probably not. So probably not. I you know, I always say that if not for masonry, how many people that I've developed a relationship with that I would have never otherwise met? You could say that for a lot of things, but if not for masonry, my Circle, my world would be significantly less than it is today. And less fulfilling. Oh, it I count it as a blessing. And you know, one of the greatest Christmas gifts I got, I said I didn't know. It was my mom handed me a cigar box, and I'm not man enough to smoke cigars. My son's my dad, they'll smoke a cigar when we go on a golf trip. That's not me. And in that cigar box was my great-grandfather's ritual book, Copyright 1890 something. Oh, wow. And his 50-year pen. Oh, wow. And I mean, it was it was emotional because I didn't know. I did not know. I didn't show it. I didn't break down. But it was, it touched me deeply. Yeah. And, you know, now I want to go on that Masonic genealogy tour to kind of find out who was.

SPEAKER_05 44:55

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_06 44:56

Because in that time, yeah, dad goes to this, his meeting. You know, it was very guarded. Is that a right? Is that fair to say? Guarded or private end. You know. But in talking to some of my aunts and my mother and some others, you know, I think there's more to be found out. And I'm really kind of excited to do that.

SPEAKER_05 45:18

Was he local?

SPEAKER_06 45:20

No. I mean, in a very small hamlet, if it even qualifies as a hamlet in southeastern Ohio. Okay. And so I want to learn about that. I want to know what lodge. I don't know that it still exists or does not, but I want to go to the meeting in the lodge that he merged with. Of course. Or the one that he was a member. And see what records they might have. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, if he's a 50-year member, I'd say there's a shot that he served as a master at least once. I would imagine. I mean, but you know, it's it's those kinds of things that that I've uncovered that there's more to do now. Yeah. Now my curiosity has peaked to the point where I want to do some things.

SPEAKER_01 46:02

Like that, I mean, that reminds me a lot of like with my grandfather, you know, that's that's how I came to Freemasonry. But when he passed away, we have his grandfather's ritual book from Indiana from like 19 something or more. And I mean, it's written in not just the cipher, it's written in symbols. Yep. I I know exactly what you're talking about. It's written in the symbols. And trying to decipher that with my dad has been really kind of fun to you know, we know what we're talking about, but it's like, oh, so that's what these symbols mean. And then his 60-year pin I have at home waiting for me next time I hit I head over to Indiana. So, but then going and looking at what his father and then his, you know, his his grandfather had done as I was doing some of my roll Schofeld society stuff, you know, that whence came you part of I got the the records from when I was my great-grandfather was initiated, passed, and raised. So it's all it's it's the secretary's book from what happened on that day. Wow. And being able to read just what was going on. Handwritten. Yeah, handwritten. I can I had to took a while to sit there and read it because I mean the handwriting is absolutely beautiful, but you know, you're getting a snapshot of just life at that time, too, what the brethren were talking about. And what was funny is I was reading through that, I was like, huh. They're arguing about some of the same stuff we're still arguing about a hundred years later. Imagine that.

SPEAKER_05 47:35

To the surprise of not me.

SPEAKER_01 47:37

No, but it was but it was interesting to say, okay, they're talking about, you know, what are we going to spend, you know, our charity on? How are we gonna, you know, how are we gonna do that? What are we, you know, what are we gonna do in our community? I'm like, wow, the same problems that we're trying to tackle right now.

SPEAKER_05 47:53

That's a cool legacy, though. I I like that we're still tackling those problems, that we're trying to put resources in the right places, that we're trying to, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 48:02

Yeah, well, it is. It's a great legacy because when you think about it, it's you know, we're trying to figure out what's the next generation wanting? How do we reach the next generation? And that's exactly what they were doing. They're sitting there going, all right, how do we reach these darn kids? Yeah. Yeah. And and we're still sitting there going, how do we reach these darn kids? But yeah, I it, yeah, it's been that that's been a fantastic part of it. I really need to get back on that real Schofeld Society stuff, but one of these days.

SPEAKER_06 48:30

Yeah, well, time.

SPEAKER_01 48:32

Time. You got you got three things. You got time, treasure, and talent. Time is one of those that boy, tight. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 48:40

Time is a treasure and it's a talent to manage it.

SPEAKER_01 48:43

Absolutely. You know, when you when you think about when you first joined, did you have any anxiety about approaching the lodge, not you know, having had any familial like history with it or anything prior to?

SPEAKER_06 48:59

I didn't. I don't remember having any real anxiety because Fred was so easy to talk to in forthright. You know, I mean, he kind of gives it to you straight. Yeah. He's very smart about, he's very versed in masonry. And I was very comfortable hearing it.

SPEAKER_05 49:19

Okay. No anxieties. What about expectations? I didn't know what to expect. I had no clue. You you weren't tainted by the History Channel or anything?

SPEAKER_06 49:30

No, no. I mean, that stuff's produced and edited, right? So of course, but but I I had no real idea what to expect. Now, you know, both my I've got what six grandkids, none older than eight. And so I've, you know, my sons, and they all know that, hey, you know, Papa's gotta go, he's got masons. And we talk about it as such. And I've talked to both my sons. You know, I don't know if now's the right time for them with young children and you know, two, four, and six. You got soccer, you got baseball, you got all these things. But I don't know that it's up to me to make that decision, guys. I think you offer, you open the door to Freemasonry, and if they knock, we will let them in. But I I don't want it to be I want it to be meaningful for them because it has been for me. And I feel like I have to take up that that might make it meaningful for them. Share a little bit. You know, you don't have to do all the things that I'm doing. You don't have, you know, family first, you know, your job, gotta take care of the family. But I I find myself selfishly, but honestly, I want to raise them. Whether I'm the master or not, I want to put my hand in their hand and raise them. You know. But I I find myself now, I I want to talk about it. I'm comfortable talking about it to anybody.

SPEAKER_04 51:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:10

Wow. That I mean, you're right. I you always it's like, yeah, raise that next guy, raise that next guy. It it never loses its specialness every time. I love doing it.

SPEAKER_06 51:21

Well, especially if you're the one that the bottom line signer.

SPEAKER_03 51:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 51:24

Right. And I'm I'm careful, not to a fault, I'm not afraid to say that, but I'm careful about who I choose to offer it to. Yeah. Right? Not because they're not worthy. I don't, I'm not uh anybody's not worthy of being a judge of anybody's character or how it might work out. But there's a gut, I guess, a kind of a gut feel. Yeah, you know, and the two that I put my name on the on the bottom line, we're gonna be fine. Yeah. You know, we're gonna be fine. But do we have to make sure we quantify the qualify them in our own minds before we ask? You know what I mean? I've just said that I kind of my own sons, you know, I don't know if this is the right time with a young family and all the I find myself conflicted. Yeah. You know, I don't want them to join just to be on the roll. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:20

You want it to mean something for them too, just like it's meant something for you.

SPEAKER_06 52:23

Yeah, I I want to help them understand why it means so much to me because talking about it, and we do, but without experiencing it, I think it it it it carries a little less weight.

SPEAKER_04 52:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 52:39

Boy.

SPEAKER_05 52:39

It's it the difference between looking at a painting of a mountain and then flying over the Rockies.

SPEAKER_01 52:45

Aaron Powell or going to the Rockies and seeing the Rockies in person and climbing them.

SPEAKER_05 52:49

Well, I mean, I mean, even from a perspective of higher up when there's more of the yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:54

It's just it's very different.

SPEAKER_03 52:56

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 52:58

So you've you know you went through your degrees. What was your first job after being raised? Junior deacon. Same here. Yep. Junior deacon, and that happened pretty quick. Same here. I think I was raised in July, junior deacon by November. Yeah, that sounds very familiar.

SPEAKER_06 53:14

Yeah. Got a phone call one night. Hey, I want you to be junior deacon. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 53:22

I think that was my first meeting back after breaking my hip, if I'm not mistaken, if you remember that.

SPEAKER_05 53:28

Probably. Man, you guys I I got off easy compared to you guys. I was a junior steward. I've never been a steward. I've never been a steward either. Never been a steward. Of course, you've never been a senior deacon either, have you? Well, no, because uh I don't know if you knew this. I got the world's like biggest promotion. I went from a junior steward to a junior warden in one election.

SPEAKER_03 53:51

Woo.

SPEAKER_05 53:52

So talk about getting hang on again. I got some I had I got some chairs I gotta fill in.

SPEAKER_06 53:58

Yeah. Yeah, and there was there's always that perceived need for somebody to kind of you know move up. But yeah, you know, I was very honest that I wanted to sit in each chair. I mean, the senior deacon is a tremendous tremendous role, and I didn't want to miss it.

SPEAKER_05 54:15

I love that role. I really do. Is that your favorite role?

SPEAKER_06 54:20

I think the senior deacon in the master, and that's two roles. I understand that. I want to have I want to try to have an impact. And whether it's in an inspection or not, you're leading that candidate about the lodge, and they're blindfolded, and there's these things that go on that they have no possible knowledge of what's happening in front or on the sideline.

SPEAKER_04 54:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 54:49

But that that trust that they we ask them to put in us. Yeah. You know, arise and follow your guide and fear no danger. I I felt like that was really the first role I took that was, wow, this is cool.

SPEAKER_01 55:04

You know, this this is really cool. It I'm I feel the exact same way. It's like when you're that senior deacon, you're kind of you're their only link. You're their you're their tether. Yeah. I mean, it there's something about that to where it's like, okay, they they are completely reliant on you. And you are the you're really their first introduction and then the last thing that they interact with before they leave. Because you, you know, you welcome them in and then you sit them down after everything. I mean, it's you know, you're a massive part of that entire ritualistic journey. Yeah. Um, yeah, I love it.

SPEAKER_06 55:43

Yeah, but you know, to answer your question more directly, uh, you know, that is probably my favorite. But depending on your experience when you serve in the East, it can either be really good or man, I wish I could have, I should have, you know, those kinds of things. And I'm not big on regrets in any walk of life. I want to challenge myself and others to reach our fullest potential. And I, you know, when I served in the East, we had a major, major decision to make. You know, we have that rental just outside our lodge. And there was a lot of debate about, you know, well, let's just sell it. Well, we could do that. But if they decide to move in and have a chicken, you know, a bunch of chickens and put up a privacy fence, every time we walk out that door, that's what we're going to be greeted with, as is everybody else.

SPEAKER_05 56:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 56:42

And so I assumed, I guess, the leadership of a total remodeling of that house. And I did it simply because long-term thinking, right? We sell it now. You have to do this or that to raise 500, 5,000, whatever it is. Yeah. You have to.

SPEAKER_05 57:06

Right.

SPEAKER_06 57:07

But if we take care of this, it'll pay through eternity, maybe. It's probably paid tenfold at this point. It was a good decision, I'll say that. And I had tons of support. There was even the ones that might have been a little reluctant. Hey, they'll buy it as is, you know, you're going to get about 40 cents on the dollar.

SPEAKER_05 57:28

Right.

SPEAKER_06 57:29

But, you know, as a lodge, it was it was an unusual calling, but we all came together. Whether we agreed to remodel or sell, we all came together because we talked about it. Here's the pros and cons. You know, here are the things that we would have to deal with if we sell it, potentially. But it was so meaningful to me to have other brothers. You know, I'm in there on a Sunday night and three guys walk in. What do you need? I I just it it started to really resonate to me that this is what I needed. This is the brotherhood they speak of. You know, and it's an unusual thing, but it was it was meaningful because I saw our lodge kind of come together for a common good, a common cause, and we all understood the purpose. And it's it was it was a lot of work.

SPEAKER_01 58:32

Yeah. A lot of work. Oh, I can only imagine.

SPEAKER_06 58:35

But, you know, today everybody's thrilled to death that we did it. And I was proud to kind of just take the mantle and say, we're here's what we're doing.

SPEAKER_05 58:44

Yeah. That's an interesting thing to rally around, but it it it's a great story, though. Like it with a with a happy ending.

SPEAKER_06 58:51

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's gonna be it's gonna be great for everybody, hopefully long after I'm gone and into the future. Maybe my sons join and they still reap the rewards of that that house.

SPEAKER_05 59:05

Well, and that it the way you guys are set up, you do have the unique privilege of kind of being able to choose your neighbors, which I think is awesome. Yeah. That that's element of control that I don't know that I would give up if if you know what I mean, we had something like that near this building. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 59:23

I I it just to me, the risks far outweighed any reward if we did it one way and not the other.

SPEAKER_01 59:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 59:32

But I also learned so much.

SPEAKER_01 59:34

Oh, I can only imagine.

SPEAKER_06 59:36

You know, the temple committee and all the things you have to go through and the people you got to meet along the way, and they were so reasonable and willing. You know, they wanted you to do this, they wanted you to succeed, but you had to do, you had to follow the process. And it was it was kind of a Masonic epiphany, the whole thing, because man, I, you know, I gotta go over the house again tonight. I gotta go over the house again this weekend for about seven months. But that's a small price to pay for the rewards we'll reap for the, you know, for who knows how long.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:13

Hopefully the foreseeable future.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:15

Yeah, I think that I think we're pretty locked in at where we want to be with that now and in the future.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:20

Good. That's good.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:23

That yeah. If if you're renting, no, I'm just kidding. I was gonna say I might be looking, no, I'm just kidding. When you think about your journey, you know, where you started, where you're at now, are there any mentors that deserve, you know, maybe an honorable honorable mention or just a shout-out here as well?

SPEAKER_06 1:00:41

Yeah, obviously I've mentioned Fred Goldstein a couple times, and and he's one that I would put way up there, right? I mean, he's always been willing. And at any point in time, if you have a question, a concern, within my lodge, you know, Bob Morgan, who, as I said, has since passed, but at the grand old age of I think 89, he was still walking and doing all of the prayers without a book.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:11

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:12

No book. You know, there was no book. I mean, he would walk by, and the only request I made of him, and as he got older and I got raised, he was less sure that he would be able to deliver the work that he wanted to be delivered. And I told him, I said, I really don't care. But to have you behind me on all three degrees will mean a lot. And he did it. So Bob, you know, Bob Peters is another one. Man, you want to get into ritual? Jump in and he will take you there. Wow. Whether it's a lecture, a charge, an obligation, open, a close, you know, he's been a great one. Roger Solt within the lodge. But in the role of a DEO, I've gotten to, again, expand my Masonic world. And, you know, the past district deputies, all great guys, and they'll help you. They'll help you. And I'm not a I'm not bashful to ask. But but if I were to name just a handful, it would be within my lodge, it would be those guys Bob Peters, Bob Morgan, Fred Goldstein, and Roger Solt.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:20

Yeah. And not, I mean, knowing a few of those guys, yeah. A lot of positive energy. A lot of positive energy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, you fast forward, then it's, you know, talking about the district, you know, kind of getting into that district education officer role. When did you, you know, when were you approached about that? And you were like saying, you know, oh, geez, yeah. This is this is the right step, right?

SPEAKER_06 1:02:45

This is a great story. So I'm in a hotel in Chicago and my phone rings. Not unusual. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:55

And it was Fred Goldstein. Uh-huh. Hey, we met, the district officers met, and we wanted to know if you'd be interested. There were some circumstances that I didn't need to know anything about, but they were looking for a district education officer. Would you be willing to do that? Well, I think so. But let me talk to my wife and just, you know, we can talk and understand what that entails. And I'll get back to you tomorrow. And he goes, Well, could anyone let us know in an hour?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:32

I can hour him say that in my hour.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:37

The tone and inflection, even I can I can hear it. I can hear it. I might as well have been on that line. I I can hear it exactly.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:45

So I said, well, let me give me the courtesy of at least calling my wife because on the surface, yes, I would do it. Right. But I want her to be understanding and gauge her level of support. And yeah, she was all for it. And I mean, there are times when you may have an hour and a half, two-hour drive to go here or there one way.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:08

You made a commitment. Yep. You know, and I I would I kid her about that all the time, but it's that kind of support that fuels anybody that that assumes, and either one of you could do it and do a better job than I do. But it's that support knowing that, you know, she bought one of the Skylight calendars.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:30

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:31

You know, so everything I put on my calendar, I have to send the Skylight so that, you know, and that's fair. I wanted to know. Yeah. But yeah, it was rather impromptu, was certainly not expecting a phone call about anything in the district. I never even saw myself sitting as a master. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I just didn't see it.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:53

And anything more than that was totally outside my reach. Yeah. And until one night in a hotel in Chicago, I had an hour to decide. So had you done uh lodge education officer before that?

SPEAKER_05 1:05:06

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:07

Yeah, I'd done that. I'd done that for two or three different years. Yeah. Okay. Yep. And enjoyed it. Really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:15

And get and it gave you an opportunity to have a relationship with another district education officer, too. So you kind of knew you somewhat maybe not on the grand scale of three counties, but at least somewhat knew what you were in store for then.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:27

Yeah. I mean, I think any of us that are curious about the visitors in our lodge, you know, we may not ask, we may already know, but we or we may make some assumptions. Yeah. Any of which is fine. But yeah, to see me in a as a district education officer, I just I guess I didn't think that big.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:50

Well, it m maybe it says that you were doing a really good job at the lodge level.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:55

Well, we hope so. I mean, that's what we all want to do, right? Yeah. Kind of leave it better than we found. It's a little bit, but you know what? The lodge is in great hands. Yeah. You know, and there's a great source of pride. You know, I don't get to go very often back to my home lodge. It's maybe, maybe once a quarter. Maybe.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:13

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:15

But when I do, it's it's just so much fun. It is so much fun to be back home. Back home. Right. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's like a homecoming almost. Yeah. And you know, when we travel, you know, we get great support with our with our lodge when we travel. I mean, you sit in the car and you know, it's just fun. It's good for the soul to have that kind of camaraderie or brotherhood.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:39

Yeah. It would help if there weren't like what, eight out of the 16 lodges in the district all meeting on that first Tuesday. But Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:48

Yeah. Try scheduling your LA or DDGMs and your DEOs. That was my task last year to create the schedule. And it's like, ugh, I can't do that because he's a member there. Can't do that because he's an officer there. You know, but yeah, I it's it was unexpected completely. And I always thought I'd have a little more time than an hour, but I have no regrets.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:16

None. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:18

Well just so that we don't get too far out over our skis, can you give us elevator pitch about what a district education officer does?

SPEAKER_06 1:07:26

To activate according to the code, it's to activate and advance the education programs and to be a liaison between kind of a mentor to the LEO, but a liaison to the education committee. And with right, Warshel brother Fred Nickerson, I mean, he's a wealth of knowledge and a great resource. But it that's the definition. It can sometimes go a little more further than that. You have to be, you have to be very careful not to cross the line and do something a D D D Gm, a district deputy, should do. But there are times when they're not there, right? They have their odd responsibilities, and oftentimes we are in the same lodge the same night. And if something is just inherently wrong, not unmasonic, just not right, not performed right, not said right, then I've not yet mastered the ability to speak up and say, hey, hold on a minute. Let's talk about this. Because I think I owe it to the lodge.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:38

Practice doesn't make perfect, it makes permanent. I'm I'm fairly confident that we've all been charged with that.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:45

Oh yeah. We have.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:46

So I don't I wouldn't see that as crossing a line necessarily. I think I think that a seasoned brother within the lodge is equally within his rights to stand up and say, wait a minute.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:55

100% agree. I 100% agree. But it doesn't always happen. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't always happen. Yeah. And so if it, you know, something needs to be said with respect and and all the reverence that any of them deserve, you know, let's talk about that for a minute. Yeah. And I always make sure I let the district deputy, hey, we had this conversation just so you know. Right. And I think I owe them that. Oh, yeah. But I'm not going to go rogue and just kind of, you know, totally step all over their toes. I don't want, I will never do that.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:28

Yeah, thinking about you know Masonic education, what you know, in your opinion, what makes that education so valuable?

SPEAKER_06 1:09:37

Well, education is the energy, the knowledge that bears the fruit, right? If if we don't espouse education, then we live on tribal knowledge. And there are a lot of lodge traditions, and I respect that. You know, there are certain things that people do in lodge, and I might ask just because I again I'm curious to understand. But the educational aspect can be the difference in a stated meeting, in a district meeting. Because if if without the education, a value-added educational piece, we're essentially opening, opening, closing, reading some communications and paying some bills. But if you get that passionate LEO, somebody that really has kind of taken it, and really doesn't just look at the first one, Abe Lincoln's axe, that's in Grandview, and say, that'll work. You know, they they actually spend some time, and we have a lot of really good LEOs in this district. We really do. Yeah. Johnstown's is particularly entertaining.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:57

I would encourage you if you get a chance. What makes it stand out? Props. Okay. You know. We learned how to use a compass to create. I don't even remember what it was now, to be honest with you. And I don't mean to demean that fine experience by not remembering passion.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:19

Preparation.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:21

I think and execution. I suspect I know what you're talking about. Is it the using the compass for sacred geometry?

SPEAKER_06 1:11:28

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But it was done. It's it's it's just so unique. They had one one night where they were talking about the musicians that were Masons. You know, from uh everybody to current rap stars to John Phillips Sousa. Yeah. Those the the history. Because they'd play the song and he'd talk about the music, you know, the uh the person that wrote it or something. But and it doesn't have to be all that, although it's enjoying enjoyable to watch and you learn. But there are there are many others that take advantage of the resources they have. I've tried to come at it a little differently in that, you know, we are exposed to things every day, all day. Where's the value in that? You know, I did, I've been working on one for a few months about about Billy Graham, and I I presented it the other night at one of the inspections, and I didn't do it justice, but I had to launch it somewhere so I could self-critique.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:37

Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:38

You know, and so I could kind of assess, okay, how'd that go? How'd that feel? And there was a couple things that I would do differently next time. But that story about the usher that brought Billy Frank into a lodge one night, or not a lodge, a revival that was 11 weeks long. I don't know about you guys, but I'm out of sins by that time. You know, 11 weeks two times a day. And you never know who you reach. But that usher had no idea that Billy Frank was Billy Graham ultimately. So there are things I try to look at, and is there a story there? Is there something that I can kind of put a Masonic spin? I don't know if that's the right way to say it, but somehow correlate it to masonry. And it was that usher. It's full, it's packed, there's no seats. Come on in. I'll find you a spot. That was my hook. Yeah. That was what hooked me anyway.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:38

Yeah. I having uh having been there and heard that one, uh both myself and worshipful brother Roy were sitting next to each other. We just looked at we're like, wow, that was beautiful.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:47

It it was beautiful. But I want it, you gotta roll it out somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:52

Yeah, it you missed out because it was oh I think it was over at Heath. You missed out. It was good. Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:58

You know, but but my point is we can go to to Grandview, and there are any number of really good education programs. And I've used them and I'm I'll use them again. But what can I add? Is there something I can add to that list and kind of create? And hopefully it has some significance to those that hear it.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:22

Yeah. Yeah, it was great. Like I said, I keep going back to that one. We it was fantastic.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:26

So yeah, you never know. The guy that you signed for, where he ends up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:31

Was this more of a lecture style? Was this interactive? Like it was probably more lecture.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:39

Okay. But I am not a good talker standing still at a podium or something. I've spoken to, you know, many, many, you know, a couple thousand, three thousand people at times. And even on a stage, you know, I can't stand to be wired to a podium. So I like to get everybody, and I talk to, you know, who was the most important in the person in that revival tent that night. Yeah. You know, and put somebody on the spot. They don't know. And that's okay. Yeah. That's okay. But I want I want them to be engaged. I want them to hopefully hear the message. And the message really wasn't about Billy Graham. It was about the usher. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:21

Well, I'd I'd say it was more of storytelling. It wasn't a lecture. No, I would agree. It was storytelling. I would agree. And that's that was the hook that got me is the way you told the story. It was like, ooh, that hit that hit. That hit with a nice punch.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:36

Well, I appreciate you saying that because you know, I got a lot of feedback. And uh, but I know that it could be better.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:42

Let let me know when you're gonna do that one again. I'll make a trip.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:45

Maybe I'll come here and do it for you. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:47

Sounds like a pleasure. Happy to do that. I love that.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:50

It'll be better than it was the first time because I've already been practicing.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:53

I love it. Yeah. Well, all right. After we're done here, we're gonna get that scheduled out. So you know, looking at all the different education programs you've seen throughout the district, you know, having had that privilege to see those, what are we doing right in the 19th?

SPEAKER_06 1:16:10

We are doing a lot right. I mean, I continued in and you hear others talk about the momentum in some of these lodges that maybe man, struggling a little bit, struggling a little bit, you know. Well, I'm not willing to just watch it struggle. You know, what do you need? How can I help? And that education that lodge education officer can be a difference maker. I believe that. You know, if they spend the time and and they have an energy, because that's usually what? Just about the last thing we do.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:51

You know, it's one of kind of the before we close type of things. And so chins get heavy.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:58

Um I personally look forward to them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:01

Yes, I do too. I do too. And I think it was because when I was an LEO, I remember Roger Solt being an LEO before me. It's like, man, that's really cool. I didn't know that. You know, there I took something away because it might be the only takeaway that night.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:17

I I think it's the most creative in terms of a stated meeting. I think it is the most creative position in the room.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:24

It has the ability to be. Yes. It really does have the ability to be. And that's all I, you know, there's a young man out in Lone Star that I was very curious, not because I had any reason to be, I just was curious what it looked like. And he does a remarkable job. There are those that need some help, but they've gotten it, right? I talked about the one at Johnstown. You know, they were kind of struggling with that, and then Seamus jumped up and just took it by the horns and it's gone to a whole nother level. It is a production and then it's awesome. That's awesome. So, but I truly believe that my role is to help that person. You know, what can what what do you got? The one thing that drives me nuts, and I don't mean to get off topic, is when the master looks at, do we have an LEO, Matt? We'd better. It should be on your agenda. You should already know what it is. But if if if I can help an LEO find a voice, some enthusiasm, and then they see the different it made difference it makes. Even if it's one of the uh senior members, you know, one of the past masters comes up and tells an LEO, hey, good job. That matters. That really matters. And and now he's got a little bit of a flame. Yeah. He's got a little taste of, wow, that was that was cool. He they liked it.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:58

And if I can help fuel that, then that's what that's what I want to do. Because I agree with you, Matt. It's it's critically important in my mind in a stated meeting.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:10

I think it peeps I think it keeps people curious. I think it keeps people coming back. I think it keeps people looking for Masonic parallels in places they might not otherwise look. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. Uh now one thing I do want to ask you. Yeah. So we talked a little bit about the code earlier. Mm-hmm. Right. We I think we all agree it's a little dry. We're we're we're charged with making sure that everybody knows that code. We're supposed to read it in line. Yeah. Right. Is there anybody out there that's gamified this in a way that makes it work for an education program?

SPEAKER_06 1:19:44

There are two that come to mind. At Potascala, the current LEO, he had Masonic Jeopardy. And it was the code. And it wasn't deep or heavy. You know, it's things that we probably knew or should know. And, you know, whoever got it right, he'd throw them a little Snickers bar. And I mean, it was crazy because everybody's sitting there shooting out answers after about the second or third question. You know, but there was value in that. Now everybody's on the edge of their seat listening.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:20

And they want that little Snickers or something, or you know, just want to be heard. And there's a movement in uh Center Lodge. They want to have Masonic DD. I know. As in Dungeons and Dragons.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:38

As in the I'm game for that, but I'm not sure how that works.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:43

Well, I'm not either. I'm not either, but I'm curious and curious enough to learn more. But it would all pertain, and I don't know how you do it. I don't know what the characters are or anything else. Huh. But novel, right? Certainly novel. Certainly novel. But it will matter to a few people. Maybe not the past masters as much. And I mean no disrespect when I say that to them. Yeah. But those that younger crowd that comes in, because when it was raised as emotion, it was well received. Somewhat reluctantly by some. But boy, the young faces in there lit up. That's awesome. Oh man, that'd be cool. And the LEO there, I have a lot of fa. Well, he's not the LEO, he's actually the chaplain, but I have a lot of faith in him pulling it off. I'm just curious to see what that looks like. But it's going to be code related at some points, right? We have to, I don't know. But there are things afoot that are new. And we need new.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:02

Yeah, that's ground, that's ground up.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:04

That's interesting. I'm going to have to go dust off my old D20s from uh interestingly enough.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:12

Brother Hofer is I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:16

I know. He loves his DD. Well, and the goal is not just to silo it in that lodge, but to make it available to anybody.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:24

So we're all going to be playing DD campaigns now through the code. I kind of like that. It would be worth seeing it.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:32

I think. I want to maintain that curiosity that I've spoken about. Yeah. I'm and and I really think they're I'm game. I'm curious.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:40

I'm game. Like I said, I'm game. I will I will not poo-poo anything that is effective. That's that's kind of where my head is.

unknown 1:22:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:50

And the only way I we can avoid that is just by maintaining a level of curiosity to ideas that come in and people look at you, what? What what are you talking about? Well, let's talk. Let's hear tell me more.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:03

Tell me more. And I I mean, Chris and I in particular, we'd be sitting in a glass house throwing stones if we were criticizing this. We asked our lodge, we asked our lodge for enough rope to do this. Yeah. Yeah. And here we are.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:16

Yeah, and look at where you are.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:17

That's what I mean. I mean, this is fantastic. And you know, they didn't even blink. Nobody blinked. That's what was amazing. Everybody's like, yeah, sure, we'll do it. I mean, and it was really just a you gotta give people a chance to succeed. It was a wing in a prayer. We're like, well, we think this is gonna be a good thing.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:33

Well, and and and the individual that came up with the idea is talked about, he's done many podcasts, like survival training, you know, not probably hard, hardcore, but okay. You get lost in, you know, they've done a lot of podcasts. So that came up. I haven't heard a lot of talk about it since, but you know, you guys should take credit for some of that. Just the catalyst of taking the leap in the support of your lodge. Yeah. And, you know, he has some experience and he mentioned it. We'll see. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:10

Maybe we'll get him on. Using the Sonic Survival podcast. Sonic Survival. Maybe that we'll talk about that when we start to get to those spin-off ones. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:21

Starting fires with the working tools.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:24

But to your point, Matt, I think there are there are no bad ideas. And we have to be receptive to them, not to hear them, but to understand them.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:36

Well, and I think that look, the hard reality is that not everything is going to be successful. Yeah. But you're not going to know what lands until you try. You got to be willing to fail.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:46

Absolutely. And I'm not an everybody gets a trophy guy that nobody loses. Yeah, there's failure, but what do we learn? Exactly. What have we learned?

SPEAKER_05 1:24:56

I literally told tell my oldest one that credit to a very specific book, but it uh you either win or you learn.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:03

Yeah. Yeah. And I I applaud him for having such outside the box. Yeah. Not so much the podcast idea because of what you guys have created, but the DD caught me totally off guard. That's totally. To create the campaign and what that looks like. So I am curious.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:29

Okay. You know, I actually have an idea where that might be going if I'm thinking about DD campaigns correctly.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:36

I am way too far removed to know.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:40

I just thinking through the ritual and through the code, I kind of have an idea where you might be going.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:46

Yeah, I think it's wrong. Yeah. But I've played exactly one game of Dungeons and Dragons in my life. So You're missing out. I'm just saying, like, I I can't, I'm definitely coming from a place of ignorance. I can't help here.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:59

So Yeah, I could be a willing participant. Right, right. You know, just to understand. But it's those kinds of things that could draw us into the code book as we outline these district leadership programs. Yeah. You know, we we continue to focus. Okay, there's a perfect chance to get them in the book. You know, how do you schedule an installation? Yeah. Who's needed? You know, we've all had them.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:30

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:26:30

No, yeah. But there are those that I know one particular that they were having their installation and didn't know they needed the installation team. You know, and and is that that master's fault? I'm gonna submit that it may not be, because if he had no awareness, no guidance, yeah. You know, it it's just I I want to be real careful when when I see something that I think, oh, I don't think that's right, you know, play out. It doesn't have to be said right now by me in the moment, but maybe we talk about it after the fact. Because it is important that we get the code in the lodge, but a creative way.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:20

That that was what I struggled with. It was trying to come up with a way to make it digestible. Yeah. Right? Like, hey, I didn't want to be the guy that stood up and said, Hey, you guys got to sit down and read this.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:34

Or read it to them. Right. Yeah. You know, and okay, great. We sit there for three or four minutes while you read a paragraph, and what did we get from it?

SPEAKER_05 1:27:42

Right. Everybody's eyes glaze over. Yeah. And I'm I'm immensely curious about both of these things.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:48

So Jeopardy and I saw that and I was not surprised necessarily, but I was taken aback by how all of a sudden everybody was shouting out answers, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:00

Well, hungry, want a Snickers? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:03

If you're not yourself without a Snickers. In our in our next stated meeting, when I move to try to get the funds for a t-shirt canon, this is why. It's for candy distribution. Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:19

Oh. But then those are great. That is a great question. And it's one that deserves to be asked and answered by many. Yeah. Because if we are to cause it to be read in lodge, little dry. Can be, right? It's you can be as enthusiastic and passionate as you want to be, but there's something more we could do. And these are two of the things that I've seen, or well, one I've heard, the other I've seen that had an impact. I'll be curious to see what the Masonic Dungeons and Dragons looks like. I have no idea.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:57

I'm in. I just got to get my D20s dusted off, like I said.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:02

I'm in. Oh Lord, in for the ride. We'll see what happens. But I'm immensely curious. I'll say that.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:09

I am equally curious.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:12

You know, as we think about, you know, the again, these education programs, are we limited to like, you know, the canon and or like the doctrine, or is the speculative nature of the craft such that you know we should be willing to entertain or explore perceived connections? So like the symbolism, culture, alternative history.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:31

Give me an example. Ooh. So this is this one of my favorite nonfiction books was around stoic philosophy. And I was uh just struck, I mean dumbstruck with how much overlap there was with sonic virtue. Right. And and stoicism, for instance, is also non-religious. And it focuses on the four cardinal virtues and what it is to lead a virtuous life without that kind of religious bent to it. And I I couldn't help but notice just how much that stuff paralleled one another.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:12

So I think there's latitude to uh do I want to be careful here, to to to think outside the box, to take careful liberties with any kind of correlation you choose to make even with the book you you speak of. Even when I was working on the Billy Graham thing, it's like, well, Billy Graham was never a Mason, proven to be anyway. He held a lot of revivals in Masonic Halls.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:44

But I was able to tie the usher to it. And I think if you could do the same thing, I think there's a lot of opportunities to tie something that maybe on the surface doesn't seem to be Masonic at all. But there's a story, there's a link, there's a connection there that probably speaks pretty clearly.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:08

Well, and the in my mind, especially with the historical stuff, if you start getting going way out in left field, obviously, there you could keep going and it it gets weirder and weirder, weirder and weirder. But with the actual historical stuff, the people who made this fraternity, right, the founding members of this, the people who wrote ritual, these these were not dumb people. Oh no. Right. And they were pulling from history. These are lessons passed down for eons in order to come up with this. So in my mind, drawing those parallels is is actually kind of paying homage to the roots. But at the same time, you don't want to, you don't want to offend the brethren. You don't want to perhaps stray too far, right? And make insinuations or or make connections that others can't overtly see. Yep. So that's kind of where in the question was. It was, you know, two, what latitude is there in your mind?

SPEAKER_06 1:32:07

They'll let you know. That they do. They'll let you know. But I would not be afraid. You know, if you really want to do something and and you feel like, man, there's something here, and you're just trying to, how do I pull it all together? Run it by one of the district deputies. I guarantee you that probably nine times out of ten, they'll be okay with it. Yeah. Okay. I I would encourage you again to think outside the box, right? If it was meaningful to you, chances are it's going to have meaning to others. But how do we do it in the framework of masonry? You know, what is there a correlation? You said that there was a lot of overlap. Talk about that. I would not be afraid. Okay. I would not be afraid. I mean, you're super smart. I get I guarantee you you'll pull it off. But don't be afraid to try.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:06

That's fair. Well, part of it's fair. Minor objection to the intelligence.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:14

You're a pretty smart guy.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:16

You really are. Okay. Well, we have to we cannot get comfortable doing the same thing over and over and over and expecting a different result. Yeah. You know? We all know you know what that's all about, but I think a fresh idea can really send somebody home or the meeting after the meeting, right? When you're having refreshments or whatever. What do you think of that? I wasn't sure where he was going with it at first, but that's pretty good. That's a win. Yeah. That's a win. I would not be afraid. And if you have any timidity about it, I would just ask, hey, I'm working on this. What do you think? Because I promise you, somebody's probably going to want to understand the Masonic DD before it actually gets played. That's my gut. But I feel relatively sure that somebody's going to want to hear a little more about that. Like, yes, probably so. And I think rightfully so. Absolutely. You know, I don't think it's unfair to understand, but we got to be open to these new fresh ideas. Now we have to be mindful of our tenants and all that came before us. But there's a ton of latitude in even that.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:33

Well, and I'm glad you say that because again, I think, you know, when what struck me is like, you know, we can't keep doing the same things over and over again, expecting different results. That's why we're kind of in the predicament we are with declining membership. We tried the same thing over and over and over again.

SPEAKER_06 1:34:49

And it's no fault of anybody. Yes. But we can't get so far in the rut that it becomes a grave. And I think Masonic Masonry will thrive in the future. I truly do. And I'm not trying to be the eternal optimist, but I truly do think it's not broken. It is masonry is not broken. It is not going to just get swallowed up in a hole. But how do we pull ourselves out of that? Right. We have to hear to understand and allow people to share these new or novel ideas. And maybe some need a little more understanding than others. But we I just think I'm going to try to maintain an open mind about those kinds of things because I saw the excitement on the face.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:35:43

And all we were doing was answering questions about the code, and you'd flip us little Snickers to them. And they just thought that was the best of thing in the world. So there are those things and there are those ways. We have to be willing to hear about maybe something a bit different than the norm.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:06

Our tenants are solid.

SPEAKER_06 1:36:08

They firmly are.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:09

It's how we message that. Yes. That we need to that we need to work on. Yes. That's what's going to take us into the future.

SPEAKER_06 1:36:14

Yes. I mean, AI. What what what role does that play eventually, if not currently, right? I mean I wonder what the code would look like if you put it into I I do wonder.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:28

I wonder. I wonder. I wonder. Give me a like have the ChatGPT give me a summary of what the code says.

SPEAKER_06 1:36:36

You know, it it's but it it's it's there's no harm in having these discussions. No. There's no harm in entertaining something. And if you're curious or concerned, be present.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:36:50

Be present and and see what the feedback looks like. I said see what the feedback, not just hear it, see what it feeds, what it looks like.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:59

I mean, I'll be the first to admit that, you know, when I do some of the education stuff for a newsletter, I use Chat GPT to help me with that. I use it to help me refine it. Sure. Get my points, you know, looking good, or maybe think of a point that, oh, I didn't think about that. And I look at it and it's like, yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_06 1:37:16

It's a tool. Yep. Now we also have to understand that it's not a tool to all people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:24

My my concerns are usually around privacy with those things. Like that that's just I know that's totally off topic, but I'm slow to uh get on board with some of these things. You Luddite. Yeah, you did.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:44

But that's that's another discussion for another time.

SPEAKER_06 1:37:46

Of course. We have that in common. I I am reluctant to fail first, not afraid to fail fast.

unknown 1:37:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:53

It's it's honestly more about what what it retains, right? And the the wrong keystroke and oh, what about this, or what about this, and and all of a sudden starts putting things together. And I don't know. I don't want to be the guy out there, you know, who who's maybe gone back on an obligation.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:14

Oh, absolutely not. And that's what we have to, it's a tool.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:17

Do we are we masters of that tool? I don't know. I'm sure they're out there. It's not me. So I'm very, very careful to read any interpretation I get as it pertains to anything that I choose to use it for.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:34

Double check. Always double check what Chat GPT says.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:37

Yeah. Yeah. But it is a tool. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:40

It's a tool. It's not going away. No.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:43

What's next? Yeah. I mean, wonder what's next.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:46

Well, I mean, that makes me think we were having a meeting, was it last month? And, you know, one of the brethren was talking about, you know, virtual reality or augmented reality for the lectures, right? Especially the fellowcraft lecture and how you can walk somebody through that using like an augmented reality. Now, I'm not a programmer and I don't know anybody that could program that, but how cool would that be to have the visualization of some of the stuff in the fellowcraft lecture as you're going through that?

SPEAKER_06 1:39:15

That's it's certainly interesting. I don't, you know, I don't either. So I don't either. I get bombarded with it at work, the uh virtual reality training. And I have to catch myself because you know, no, I want to do it the way this is past muster under scrutiny. And you know, I don't want to be that guy. Yeah. And so I have to hold myself to the same level of account that I would anybody else. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:45

I do, I do like that particular idea, but I don't I don't want to be involved in any of the planning of it. I would just kind of I would like it to be done in a completely sealed lab with no internet connection and have the final product delivered to me because it sounds really cool. But I'll be a consumer. Yeah, happily. I'll be a consumer.

unknown 1:40:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:40:07

I mean, who knows where we're headed. But we ha if we're gonna actually be long-term thinkers, it can't just be we'll send an email. Yeah. Send a text. Yeah. Right. Because we have to be as best we can, all things to all people when it comes to communicating. Some of it is gonna be a phone call. That's fine. That is fine. That's absolutely some of it you're gonna have to knock on a door, even better. Yeah. But there will come a time when that's the minority.

unknown 1:40:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:40:41

And they'll, you know, hey, put it on the website. Put, you know, the website, like that's cutting edge, right? You know, i there's there's something out there that's coming our way. And we should not, my mind, we should not be afraid, we should be careful. We should certainly do any research necessary to make sure it is the tool we want it to be. But we can't just turn a blind eye to it. That's my opinion anyway. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:12

No, I love it. Yeah, I I certainly don't think that's wrong. I don't know that I'm ready for it, but I don't think that's a good thing. No, I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 1:41:18

I'm totally with you. Totally with you. But I don't want to sit and tell a room full I I don't do that. Yeah, why don't you do it? I don't want anything to do with it. I understand that, right? But I I I just want to be careful about putting myself in that box.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:42

Yeah. That's me. No, I I completely agree with that.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:50

Lectures and charges. We talked we talked about gamifying the code. That's hard.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:58

Lectures and charges seem to be the Achilles heel of some of our younger members.

SPEAKER_06 1:42:03

You know, I th I thought about that too. And for some reason I feel like that might be even harder. I might not be thinking about it right. But do we understand the importance of a lecture? I know we do. Yeah. We've seen it done extremely well. And we've seen some that there's some opportunities.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:31

I haven't talked to a single brother that doesn't want to do them well and do them justice. 100%. Everybody, I mean, quite literally, nobody has said, I'm not up to the task, that's not for me. I've not heard those words pass anybody's lips. Nor have I. It seems to be one of not only time commitment, but also there aren't as many, at least in this lodge, that know them to pass them down. So with calendars as tight as they are and the ability to kind of meet and start to generate some traction there, it just I'm wondering if that's kind of universal, at least here in the 19th.

SPEAKER_06 1:43:10

Well, I I think it goes be outside the 19th. I think if it is important, and I think we could all agree that it isn't it is critically important, then how do we impart that importance to others? Yeah. You know, and there's probably no easy way. But who says you gotta do them all?

SPEAKER_03 1:43:32

That's true.

SPEAKER_06 1:43:33

You know, who says you gotta do the whole fellowcraft lecture? You know, maybe you do a part, somebody else does a part, and we kind of trade off from over time, and before you know it, you know, I'm not faced with opening this code book and looking at three to five pages of code and trying to craft my lecture, my version of the lecture. You know, some of you just there's got to be a commitment to it. And if it is important, we make time. I know at Potascala we practice every Thursday, regardless. Now we could be practicing something in the master mason degree that we're not good at, you know, or we need work on. Other nights it'll be ritual. And there have been nights where all we do is go through a lecture. And I think that we we we have to meet them. Well, what is the issue? What is the issue with learning a charge or a lecture?

SPEAKER_05 1:44:44

I think uh this is purely observation. Yeah. Getting started. Yeah. I'm an N of one, right? But that's what I've noticed. It's a lot there's a lot of ambition, there's a lot of talk, and then it falls flat.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:03

Well, I and I agree with you. I mean, now it's an N of two. Sometimes it looks daunting. You see that lecture in there, it can get daunting to say, okay, I gotta learn all that. You know, and you're sitting there going, oh, how am I gonna remember that? Yeah. With everything else I gotta remember in life. How am I gonna remember that?

SPEAKER_06 1:45:22

That's fair. It's totally fair. But if it is critical, if it is important, then we have to understand it is important, and then we have to pass it along similarly as they did to Richard or anybody else.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:40

Art. Art, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:45:42

You know, I mean, somewhere, somebody took the time.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:45:47

I I've given this thought, and I really don't know that I could feel good about all the lectures going to a video.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:45:58

Yeah. I I that's just me though, right? I I just don't know that it would have anywhere near the same impact because if you ask the person receiving the lecture how to go, I can't believe he he did all that from memory.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:14

You know, they're amazed by it. Well, the other thing that I, again, purely observational. The other thing that I have noticed is that especially not if somebody's pro-Tem, it's very different. But if if you're dealing with a new candidate, it's such a fire hose of information that they're they're maybe getting 10% of it. The brother who did that lecture actually learned a hundred times more than that candidate.

SPEAKER_06 1:46:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:46:43

That's do we owe it then to the candidate to give him the same opportunity at some point? Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, your question, I don't know a great way. I don't, I haven't seen it. Now I've seen it where it's broken up. Two or three people might do the lecture, certain pieces of it. That's fine. And maybe that's more palatable, right? Hey, you take this third. The ones I struggle with are the ones that are actually written out. Yeah, I do too. Not the ones that are in code, but the ones that are actually spelled out right there in front of you. I don't know why, but the brain does less work. I suppose there's some truth to that. I suppose there's some truth to that. But we have to understand as a as a lodge or as as lodges, that it is important to the degree it is important to the history. Yeah. You know, and if it is, we have we're smart enough collectively, you know, all the people we have, all the resources that exist, we're good enough to make it happen. I just don't know that the white flag gets raised often enough to say, hey, I need help. We fumble through it, and then we don't want to do it anymore because it wasn't good. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I know Hebron's got a young man that's he's done the Master Mason degree. I was there the first night he gave it. Amazing, fantastic job. You know, so he, I'm interested in picking his brain. How'd you do that? What did you do to learn that? Right. I mean, I don't know that. Is it repeatable? Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. I gotta believe it is.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:35

Yeah, I would imagine. Yeah. How do how do we bottle that up and pass it around? Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:48:39

Yeah. I I mean, he's got family, he works, you know. How did you do that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:44

I mean, I was there, I was there that night too. It was absolutely fantastic. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:48:48

Darn near WordPress.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:49

It was almost flawless, yeah. Yeah. Almost flawless. That's impressive.

SPEAKER_06 1:48:53

I thought I couldn't believe it. Yeah. Because after he gave it, the secretary gave him his lecture pen.

unknown 1:48:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:48:59

First time he ever did it. Yeah. So those are the people I want to tap.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:03

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:49:03

You know, how'd you do that?

SPEAKER_04 1:49:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:49:05

Was there a trick? No, man. I just ground through it. Okay. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:49:11

What is your version of that look like? Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:49:13

Yes. Yes. But I think there's opportunities. We just have to have the discussions.

SPEAKER_03 1:49:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:49:21

You know, we sit down at a table and say, okay, we're going to learn a lecture tonight. No, we're not. Not in one night. You're not. Not in one night. Not in one night. But one of the gentlemen I brought in, I challenged him to learn the apron lecture. Maybe that's that's a great start. Yeah. The G lecture, a charge. You know, maybe it doesn't have to be a full lecture, but let's how can we get them a quick win?

SPEAKER_04 1:49:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:49:49

You know, how can we do that? I mean, the apron lecture, yes, there's content to it, but it's doable. You know, the G lecture's sane.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:50:00

But I think I think we have to s if if they're important, we've got to find a way and make it happen. Well, you know, w it's not gonna be easy.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:08

Yeah. No, I don't disagree.

SPEAKER_06 1:50:09

But we'll find a way. And then we can kind of tailor it in a way that it feels easier. Maybe it's sharing. Yeah. I don't know. But we've got to do it, otherwise we lose it. Well, I'm afraid we do. Yeah. And I don't want to see that happen.

SPEAKER_05 1:50:28

That's that's unacceptable.

SPEAKER_06 1:50:30

I totally agree with you guys. Yeah. I I don't want to see it up on a screen being played. No. That's my opinion.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:37

No, I I I wholeheartedly agree with that. There's something about that lecture in person live. Again, it may be a fire hose, but boy, you're sitting there just completely enamored. Completely enamored. I mean, I don't think I'll ever forget my Master Mason lecture outside at the sunrise. Yeah. But you know, because yeah, again, it was it was powerful. It's powerful.

SPEAKER_05 1:51:03

It's what it is is inspiring. Yes. Even if you only get 10% of that, you are in awe of the brother's. You're getting 10% of that inspiration and it's soaking in. Well, you're getting 100% of the inspiration that you get for the brother that took the time to do that and deliver it in the way that he did.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:19

Because it means something, because they took the time for you.

SPEAKER_05 1:51:22

Well, and if you're paying attention, you also know that that gentleman was in the chair that you were in at some point in the past. And that means you can do that too.

SPEAKER_06 1:51:30

Yeah. And that's what we have to impart.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:51:34

You know, to sit there and tell this young man or that he can you can do that too. Yeah. They don't see a pathway to that early on. Yeah. There's just no way I could do that. I mean, when I was junior deacon, it's like, holy cow, I got to remember all this. You know what I mean? Right. I'd never done it.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:51:51

So I'm like, I don't know how I'm going to remember all this.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:54

And then you get to the senior deacon, you're like, oh my God, that's even more.

SPEAKER_06 1:51:57

Why did I sign up for this? Yeah. But we did it because it mattered. Yeah. And we have people that would help us do it. Yeah. And that we can't, we cannot shy away from our obligation to continue what was handed to us. Yeah. We can smartly maybe come up with a way to make it simpler, if that's possible. Yeah. Or at least more digestible. Yeah. To somebody to start learning it. You know, you, you and you, I want we're gonna, we're gonna work on the fellowcraft lecture. We'll pick one. It's pretty easy to break it up.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:35

Yeah. That's kind of what we've done here is we've paired people up together to learn them together. Accountability buddy, and you don't have to learn the whole thing.

SPEAKER_06 1:52:46

Yeah. But once you get so far, it's less hard.

SPEAKER_05 1:52:51

Well, my my thinking was that with the accountability that you would end up learning the same thing. The whole thing, yeah. Because just like returning your proficiency, what ends up happening? You're you're you memorize both parts. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:04

So at least you hope you're memorizing both parts. That's true too.

SPEAKER_06 1:53:10

Yeah. It's to me, it's incredibly important that we maintain that. Yeah. Because when it's done well, watch the candidate. If the guy's not standing behind them looking at it, he's looking up at the person delivering the lecture. Yep. And I would love to know what's going through his mind. I know when Bob Morgan gave me mine, I was like, holy cow, how'd he do that? You know? Oh my gosh. How in the world did he do that? Yeah. So you're right. I was inspired.

SPEAKER_05 1:53:43

Well, and and if you can do that out, that what else can you do? What other self-limiting thoughts do I have? Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:53:52

All of us. Yeah. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_05 1:53:55

All of us. Well, but that's where the inspiration comes in, right? Because that all of a sudden, that limiting principle that you've imposed on yourself just gets completely blown out of the water. Yeah. It reframes what you're capable of. A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:08

That's well said. I mean, I can still remember the fellowcraft lecture. That's the one I remember the most I remember the most. Phil McClellan. Mm-hmm. Fantastic at that fellowcraft lecture. Love that lecture. He really was. Oh, fantastic at that. And I can just I can remember it. I can remember every piece of it just from him taking me around with it.

SPEAKER_06 1:54:30

Yeah, that's my favorite.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:32

That that is probably my favorite lecture, too. We've talked about this many times, many times. Yeah, that's probably my favorite. You know, sometimes leadership, you know, I guess we're switching gears a little bit. It feels like a little bit of a loaded word. You know, it's often confused with title or authority. You know, there are several styles of leadership out there. So when you're in your, you know, when you're talking about leadership, or you're in your discussing leadership, what are the qualities you're referring to?

SPEAKER_06 1:55:00

Well, I think accountability is one, right? We have to be willing to be held accountable for that that a leader is expected to achieve. Communication to me is if not one, one A. I mean, we can't do it all. We just can't. And I referenced, you know, when we were working on that house, you know, it was daunting. But boy, when two or three, four or five guys would show up, hey, what do you need? Man, I just a load was lifted, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:55:32

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 1:55:33

But you have to be willing to delegate. And you can't just delegate necessarily all the time to the first three hands that go up in the room. You know, there's there's an opportunity there to be a little bit more strategic about how we delegate. Sometimes you got to make tough decisions. And you have to be willing to really spend time and thought and make the right decision. And you have every resource in the world available to you. I mean, our district leadership, Grand Lodge leadership, all will take your phone call. Yeah. And I think we can't discount that, but we have to be willing, you know, as the leader, to make some of the tougher decisions. I mentioned positivity and communication. Those are incredibly important. I think leading by example is big, right? I mean, I would never ask somebody to do that that I'm not willing to do myself. And let me show you, not go do it. Let me help you. Let's go through this together. And that way we can kind of break down the perceived or real barriers of leadership. I do believe it's a skill. I don't know that any that anybody's born a leader. I think things happen in your life. You know, for me, it was sports. You know, all of a sudden you're a captain. Well, what's a captain do? Right? First time you're ever a captain. Yeah. But there's somebody there willing to help you. And for me, being a leader is being willing to stay out front, face the headwinds. I'll take all the slings and arrows, and all the credit goes to the team. That's to me part of the posity. There's no lose for them. You can I want to say this right, you can share authority. You know, I can give you the authority to do this. I I can give you that. I can share responsibility as a master. I cannot avoid accountability.

unknown 1:57:50

No.

SPEAKER_06 1:57:50

As a master, right? I can we can have a committee and I can say, you know, you're in charge. We'll meet regularly. But at the end of the day, ultimately, as a leader, I'm responsible and wholly accountable.

SPEAKER_04 1:58:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:58:07

And sharing that, showing that, but being willing to take that leap and hand something off. That's sometimes the hardest thing to do as a leader. I'll just do it myself. You know, I've done this a hundred times. It'd just be easier if I did it myself. That's that helps nobody. It helps nobody, including yourself. Yeah. But you know, leadership is a skill. I like I said, I read a lot of leadership books. Some are really good, and some I really get probably less out of. But being an old baseball coach, I steal every good idea I can get. You know, there's not a whole lot new about leadership. There have been great leaders in history. And so I am I enjoy learning that. Well, how did they do that? You know, Galen or Galen, Gale. He shares the patent story. Yeah. And I can't remember the other general. Who is it? Bob Montgomery? No. No. I don't know. I'm doing him a disservice by not remembering. But how differently they led. Meisenhower. Nope. Nope. They led in a very different way, but their men loved them and would follow them because they trusted them. So if I'm a leader, I have to be all the things I mentioned. But trust is probably for me paramount. People around you, if they don't trust you, they won't follow you. You know, communication, yeah, huge. Delegation, positivity, all the things. But if they don't trust you, and trust is earned, not given. And maybe it is given as a leader because of the nature of the offices in our lodge, but boy, it's fragile.

unknown 2:00:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:00:01

Well, I think that goes back to what we said earlier. You got to give people an opportunity to succeed or fail.

SPEAKER_06 2:00:06

100%.

SPEAKER_05 2:00:07

I mean, you somebody has to take the risk. Right. In in delegating. Yeah. If it needs done and you can't do it yourself or shouldn't do it yourself, and you need to delegate, and you're trying to bring somebody up and kind of pull them along, right? Lower that hand, you you got to take the risk.

SPEAKER_06 2:00:25

Yeah. And it it helps the whole lodge. I mean, when somebody, I don't care if it's an investigation committee, an audit committee, a finance committee, whatever you want to call, you know, pick one. You give them the direction, preferably in writing. You know, so that there's there's no gray areas here. Here's exactly, here's the SOP for an investigation committee.

SPEAKER_05 2:00:56

Not what I said.

SPEAKER_06 2:00:57

Yeah. You know, so there's no gray area. We go over it, we talk about it, we agree to it, and then jurs run with it. But there has to be benchmarks along the way where we check in and how's it going? What do you need? We're good. Okay. How are we coming on this, this, and this? Because I want to know details. I just don't want to hear we're good. But now you're creating leaders. You're creating leaders, not just followers. How do you practice being a leader? Daily. Daily. I mean, you gotta be willing to take on things. I, in my role, have never had the liberty of being comfortable. Right? And to me, comfort is a very comfort zones, I should say it like that, are a very dangerous place because nothing grows in a comfort zone. It stays static. Yeah. You know, it may remain you may have status quo forever. But then this is me, and it's probably what's wrong with me, is my view on it. But if you want to build leaders, you have to give them a chance to lead. You have to trust them as they've trusted you.

SPEAKER_04 2:02:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:02:20

And you have to be there to help, support, get them over the tough spots, and then challenge them. You know, you have to be willing to challenge them.

SPEAKER_05 2:02:30

In a lodge setting, what does that look like? Does that look like a committee? Chairing a committee? Does that look like putting on an event?

SPEAKER_06 2:02:40

Like how do we I think either one of those could work. You know, I think it's important that we don't always. So who needs to be on that committee? Investigation committee. Gotta have a past master. Yeah. What about the newest Master Mason, who may not have a ton to contribute day one? But I'm trusting you to go with these two because I think you're gonna be great at it. I really think you're gonna be really good at this. And your first time is just kind of observing. And you'll know where you fit with your comments if you choose to make any, and you should. But you have to give them a chance to fly. And it could be a committee. It could be getting the candidate ready, part of the Zerubbabel Award, right? Yeah. Some of the things that are built in there are very low risk, high impact. I mean, just the guy walks out for an inspection with no apron on. Not great. You know, but I saw that. I did too. Twice. Yeah.

unknown 2:03:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:03:52

I've seen it once at least.

SPEAKER_06 2:03:53

Yeah, I've seen it twice. And but that's that's low risk, high impact, but it's an easy win. Hey, here's what I need you to do. On the back of that door is a checklist of everything that we need to go through. I need you to follow that to the letter. And when we're done before he knocks on that door, make sure that we've hit all the boxes. It's it's spelled out. It's an easy win. You know, it it's something that's very manageable, but it it has to be to me, it has to be an opportunity to to win, you know, to succeed. And we can create that in a in a committee. You're not the chair, but you're on the committee. Whether it's audit, finance, whatever it is. I think aerospace has a really neat way they kind of incorporate people. In your audit committee, and they and help me here, they have all their seniors, I believe.

SPEAKER_01 2:05:00

I believe you're right. I believe it's all the seniors.

SPEAKER_06 2:05:02

On your finance committee, or it's vice versa. It's vice versa, I think. Okay, so your audit committee is all your juniors. Your finance committee is all your seniors. So now they're actively busy in something that's it's important. I mean, it's incredibly important.

SPEAKER_05 2:05:18

On the odd chance, the listener is not a Mason. The juniors and seniors are the stewards, wardens, and deacons. Yeah. Their uh roles within the lodge itself.

SPEAKER_06 2:05:31

Yeah. And and now they have they're contributing. It matters. Yeah. And they have to know it matters. And when it passes inspection, they need to be recognized. You know, you need to acknowledge, hey, nice job. Nice job. Really good. And now they're, you know, what else do you need? We have to generate that win so that now they're a little hungry for more. And before you know it, they are a senior deacon or something along those lines that they could have never envisioned themselves being.

SPEAKER_05 2:06:05

I'm hearing mentorship again. Yes. Yes. That's what it's all about, I think.

SPEAKER_06 2:06:11

I think it is mentorship, relationships, both are built on trust.

SPEAKER_01 2:06:16

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:06:17

You're certainly right there. Yeah. So I just these things are important. And creating leaders is probably as important as anything. And it's not as hard as maybe we think. They don't have to recreate the wheel. Just give them that one task. Pick something out of the Zerubbable or something else, whatever it is, a task. Setting up the lodge. Yeah. You know, an event. You know, be part of that committee.

SPEAKER_05 2:06:49

So the reason this hit our question list for you, of course, is that your your passion project here of late has been the district leadership course. Yeah. Right? Can you go into that a little bit? Maybe not everything, obviously, but what are some of the stated goals of this thing? And you know, is there are there any little tips, tricks, bits of homework and practice that you can share?

SPEAKER_06 2:07:16

The goal is to present all the tools that you may need and those that you don't even know you need. Oh. But to have them available so that if it comes up, hey, wait a minute. We talked about that. And you know, at least because you get into the book, the code book, or the officer's manual, you know where to go to find it. Right? We want to create, I mean, this leadership program is foundational. It is not new. I think it was 2008 and 2012. There were similar programs, but they lasted about a year. And there's been a lot of work. I mean, a lot of work into both of these that will go unnoticed and it doesn't matter. But we have the opportunity to create a path for a junior warden to move to the east, understanding here's my process. When I'm here, I should be doing this. You know, we talk about that. The senior warden, you know, hey, hope you're here by now, you know. Plan, communicate. What can we schedule on your calendar? Well, I'm two years away. Great. You already know that you're going to have to have an installation. You already know when the elections are. You can pretty much bank on the grand master's communication being roughly the third week of October-ish. You know, there the Christmas party we have every year, whatever it is, you know, start to build that that information that is going to take you to the East and allow you to start planning, start delegating. Who do I want as my appointed officers? It's it's incredibly important because it covers gaps. What do we do in our lodge if the uh HVAC breaks down? You know, how do we do that? What do we have to do? What's it cost? What does that mean? Is there any cause and effect to the cost reaching a certain threshold? You know, all these things are available. And our goal is to present all of them in kind of a strategic order so that it is digestible. There is, you know, some homework in a couple of them.

SPEAKER_05 2:09:52

I have it on good authority, as I point at Chris Krim. The the skills here are transferable. They're not limited to the lodge itself.

SPEAKER_06 2:10:01

Absolutely not. That's the beauty of it, in my opinion, is you can take what you learn in this leadership program and apply it in your work, in your day-to-day, or within your lodge. But these skills are not something that's just kept in a drawer with an apron at the lodge. Those are things that can kind of transform you in your life. I'm excited about it. Have been. We have been really hyper-critical about how we present now. You know, it has to be on point. And we really hit each other purposefully if it's not quite right. You know, I had a hand in my pocket that was called out. I did too. You know, but I understand why it was called out. It wasn't anything negative. I have to set. I don't want to say this and sound egotistical because I don't mean it this way. I have to set a tone. I have to be the example, lead by example.

SPEAKER_05 2:11:06

Well, if if you're trying to establish a standard, somebody has to set the standard.

SPEAKER_06 2:11:10

That's right. And the standard is the standard no matter who you are. Whether you're an advisor, a deputy, a DEO, or a member in the uh officer's line or somebody from a lodge that we feel like has the ability to enhance the leadership program. The people that have came, we've had great, I think we had a total, I can't remember if it's 72 people that attended at some point through all three. And there were less than 20 that did all three. But it's so important that we're willing to bring it back and do it again. And we'll do it again next year. But there'll be more, right? Now that we've kind of gotten through leadership, so to speak, and how to lead, now there are other gaps. Other things, right? If you were to in your own mind, what one thing should we work on? As as a lodge.

SPEAKER_05 2:12:09

As my lodge or just what I have seen?

SPEAKER_06 2:12:12

Let's go with what you've seen.

SPEAKER_05 2:12:15

Uniformity. That's something I've not seen when chairs change, you don't have uniformity all the time. And I don't mean that in a in a rote kind of robot way. I mean that in a way of style, you know, simple, simple ritual work.

SPEAKER_06 2:12:33

How about the Dugards and Science?

SPEAKER_05 2:12:34

Something that's where people forgive me for saying it, but it feels like people get lazy with some of that stuff.

SPEAKER_06 2:12:42

And I would agree. I mean, it's it's obvious, you see it.

SPEAKER_05 2:12:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:12:48

That in and of itself is not necessarily a session or a phase, right? However, if we talk about the standardization of different aspects of masonry, now we take something away. So we're we're learning in phase one how to be a master, how to be a senior warden, how to be a junior warden, how to plan. What does planning entail? It's different things to different people. But we're giving you a template that'll take you from where you're at through the east. And in phase two, it's just kind of cumulative, right? We do a little bit more. Talk about committees a lot in phase one because they're important. They're critically important. If I'm going to delegate, I gotta know how to delegate. Not just call you, hey, tomorrow night, can you go on that investigation? You know, Matt and Chris, can you do that tomorrow? Ah, geez, I wish I could. So we want to tackle the fundamentals of masonry. We want to give people all the tools they need to be successful, know where to find those tools if they're not sitting in a leadership program phase, and certainly be available to them. Phase three was probably the one that was most roundly success accepted just because it truly challenged you. And purposefully, there are obstructions at the north, south, and east gate. Oh boy. Oh, yeah. But the people there, from people that had much more experience in masonry than I to the newer people that maybe have less, they all got something out of it. It was, and so we learned from that. So how do we incorporate, can't repeat it necessarily. How do we make it more like that? But yeah, it is. It is foundational to masonry and leadership, but also outside of masonry, it's foundational for somebody that aspires to be a leader.

SPEAKER_05 2:15:05

Now I'm looking forward to it. Not that I wasn't before, but I'm looking forward to it now because now I know there's a challenge associated.

SPEAKER_06 2:15:12

Oh, 100%.

SPEAKER_05 2:15:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 2:15:14

And those challenges will maybe take on a different form. It'll be very similar, but you know, we've learned now how we can kind of tweak this and make it a little more engaging. Right? How you've got now to do something.

SPEAKER_05 2:15:28

It sounds like for a young officer, I mean, leadership requires agility, right? Oh. So it it sounds like for a young officer, if they attend one of these things, they're the only way they're gonna get caught flat-footed is if they're intentionally flat-footed.

SPEAKER_06 2:15:43

100%.

SPEAKER_05 2:15:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 2:15:45

Young man at Hebron, Joe Brooks, love him to death. He keeps, he he just can't wait. He attended, I think, one or two of them. Cannot wait. And because of the success of phase one, two, and three last year, there's a lot of buzz. But there's also challenges I've laid out. You know, I want the five line officers to be there. Makes sense. You know, let's get let's set an expectation. Now, if there's two people show up, we're gonna do it. But let's set the expectation that the five line officers are gonna be there.

SPEAKER_05 2:16:21

Well, barring anything unforeseen, there's at least one of us.

SPEAKER_01 2:16:25

I think I might be there too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:16:28

So we've got our two.

SPEAKER_01 2:16:29

We've got two. There you go. Just need two out of three. Or five, two out of five. Boy, my counting skills tonight.

SPEAKER_05 2:16:37

And I and I saw that you were f your fingers were off too when you were holding them up.

SPEAKER_01 2:16:42

It's been a long one. Amen. You know, as we start to wrap this up, I think, you know, some of our favorite questions are here at the end just because they're they're fun. Yeah. It's your EA degree, you're in the preparation room, right about you know, right before you're ready to knock. What is going through your mind?

SPEAKER_06 2:17:06

What are we doing? Right? I mean, you're blindfolded. You go into a small little room. Okay, I need you to disrobe and take your rings off and anything metallic and lay them up there. It's like, what for? Yeah, you know, and then you come out in this outfit that you saw before they blindfolded you. And what is this all about? You know, it it's it can be a touch unnerving.

SPEAKER_03 2:17:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:17:37

You know, what are we doing? And you don't know. You don't know what you don't know. And it's like, wow, this is different. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:17:47

Not wrong.

SPEAKER_01 2:17:48

Not wrong at all.

SPEAKER_06 2:17:49

But it comes together quickly.

SPEAKER_01 2:17:51

Yeah. Well, and you can kind of tell that, you know, with the candidates too, after they've gone to the degree and you say, well, do you have anything to say? They're kind of like a lot of times, I don't know. I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_06 2:18:01

And I think that's where we owe it to the candidate, if it was an entered apprentice, fellow craft, master mason, to get them to the next lodge that's hosting that degree. Yeah. Because then they have a chance. I see now.

SPEAKER_05 2:18:16

The the moment that I have after every one of those, if I have a moment with the candidate, that's exactly what I say. Like you, while this is still fresh, you should go see another one.

SPEAKER_03 2:18:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:18:28

Because it's just very it's very, very different on the other side.

SPEAKER_06 2:18:33

I mean, there are things that happen in some of the degrees that you would never anticipate. All totally meaningful. So, you know, not there's nothing untoward about anything that happens in these degrees, but you might not expect.

SPEAKER_05 2:18:50

Well, and depending on the temperament of the brother, too, that they when they're not the focal point, I think they absorb more.

SPEAKER_06 2:18:56

Sure. Sure. Yeah. I mean, they see it without a blindfold. Yeah, when you're not blindfolded, you do absorb a whole lot more.

SPEAKER_01 2:19:03

It totally looks different.

SPEAKER_05 2:19:05

Speaking about that more generally than literally, but yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:19:16

Oh God, I'm blindfolded. What where are they taking me? Right.

SPEAKER_05 2:19:20

The anxieties turned down from a hundred.

SPEAKER_06 2:19:23

Watch the steps and how guarded they are when they're blindfolded.

unknown 2:19:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:19:29

And then once they're off, it's like, ah, let's go. You know, now they have at least a sense of self or a sense of, okay, I'm all right. Yeah. But yeah, it it was different. I'd never experienced anything like it to that point.

SPEAKER_01 2:19:44

No, same. I I I I shared that sentiment. I think I was going, what am I doing? Where am I?

SPEAKER_05 2:19:52

Yeah, it's it that seems to be a pretty common theme. Yeah. A little bit, a little bit of anxiety, a little bit of trepidation.

SPEAKER_01 2:19:58

What have I gotten myself into? Yep. Yeah. Yeah, there is that. It's like, is this gonna be silence of the lambs or what's going on?

SPEAKER_05 2:20:11

I don't think I was worried quite about that. Yeah, I don't I that that hadn't crossed my mind until now. But you're welcome. I will not be helping you load furniture into a van anytime soon.

SPEAKER_01 2:20:26

What working tool do you think is the most important and why? Doesn't have to be your favorite.

SPEAKER_06 2:20:33

Yeah. For me. For me. In my daily existence. It's a 24-inch gauge. Because it gives me the perspective of, you know, you have a finite number of hours in any given. And I have to strategically plan my day because I have to incorporate three things. I have to incorporate my job, rest, and then thinking of others besides myself to contribute to the betterment of society as a Mason. And I I can manage those three things. A lot of the other stuff that comes out of us on a daily basis is just noise. And you have to understand the difference. But with the 24-inch gauge, I I have in my own mind the ability to manage my day. Now, is it my favorite? I think it is. But boy, it's hard to look past the trial.

SPEAKER_03 2:21:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:21:43

Because that's kind of where everything comes together, right?

SPEAKER_03 2:21:48

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:21:52

I can't disagree. I can't disagree at all. They they all have a special place. Yes, they do. Yeah. It's it is definitely individual opinion. Sure. That that trowel is very it's it's high up there.

SPEAKER_06 2:22:06

Yes, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 2:22:09

We kind of talked about this already, but what's your favorite lecture?

SPEAKER_06 2:22:13

Oh, fellowcraft. Yeah. I mean, it just paints a picture. You know, I at the end of the prentice, you're kind of like, what's he talking about? You know, I don't know what I'm seeing if we have it on the screen because I was blindfolded. As a fellowcraft, I now know what this is all about. You know, I'm I'm uh I'm not as anxious or anything else about that second knock.

SPEAKER_05 2:22:38

It is no longer your first rodeo.

SPEAKER_06 2:22:40

Yes. Yeah. And now I can take in what I'm seeing and hearing with more of a purpose. And it just kind of paints a picture of my path to hear. I don't yet know what lies ahead, but I feel more prepared because of my experience and what I learned in the fellowcraft degree.

SPEAKER_05 2:23:01

Okay. So Masonic rings. The eternal debate. Points in or points out.

SPEAKER_06 2:23:11

There is nothing that requires you to wear it either way. Points in, usually it's worn on the right hand, pink ear index. Points in, kind of points to my heart, right? It's it's me showing the world that I'm a Mason. Points out simply lets me present it to others that I'm a Mason. There's no right or wrong answer. None that I could find anywhere. It's certainly not in the any anywhere to be found in the code or it isn't.

SPEAKER_05 2:23:52

And I I've I like that question because I think it speaks to I there I've talked to brothers who've worn it both ways, depending on how they were feeling on a given right. But it it is that kind of symbolic gesture of you know how it is you're presenting yourself to the world in certain respects.

SPEAKER_06 2:24:09

Aaron Powell It was interesting. One of the readings that I was able to just kind of review a lot of the past masters where it points in, inward. A lot of the newer masons where it points out because if you see my ring, you see a square encompasses. If I'm a past master, I already know I'm a past master. I know I'm a mason. Yeah. And it's more inward as a reflection of what I am and who I am because of Masonry.

SPEAKER_03 2:24:40

I like that.

unknown 2:24:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:24:42

I'm not looking to prove anything to anybody. I'm a Mason. I'm not looking to defend the fact that I'm a Mason. I'm a Mason. And I'm proud to be a Mason. I really like that. But you how many times have you had people come up to you because you have a ring? I have. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:25:00

Multiple times.

SPEAKER_06 2:25:01

Happened to me in Phoenix and Vegas at the airports. You know, one of them, I see you're a traveling man. Yeah. Yeah. You know, that's not atypical. And the other one, I see you're a Mason. Yeah. I am so taken amongst brothers and fellows. Yeah. You know, that kind of thing. The conversations went on for 10, 15 minutes. That's awesome. And had no idea who I was talking to other than he's a brother.

SPEAKER_01 2:25:27

That's cool. That's really cool.

SPEAKER_06 2:25:28

Yeah. I thought so.

SPEAKER_01 2:25:30

That's really cool. Well, first off, thank you so much for joining us here at Newark. I mean, this has just been a great conversation. Is there anything, you know, a final parting, you know, piece of wisdom for any brother out there, you know, that you'd like to leave them with.

SPEAKER_06 2:25:49

My father-in-law had a sign, be the change you want to see in the world. We've all heard it. Let's be the change we want to see in Masonry. Not that we're looking to change masonry as a whole, but what can we change to accommodate the younger, you know, the younger generation? God, I sound like the old man of the can do to reach people that don't come or people that don't know. I really want to be not an advocate for change. I want to be an advocate for masonry, you know, to get people back. And it's happening. It is happening. We'll we'll look at numbers and feel depressed, but you have to look beyond just the big numbers and look at the pockets. I'm telling you, it's happening. I've never seen, and I don't know if it's because of the Grandview registration. I don't know the why. It doesn't really matter the why. I'm seeing momentum locally in pockets. Now, what we do with that momentum is going to determine the future of Freemasonry.

unknown 2:27:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:27:07

Well, I love that. And I've to me that's a great place to springboard us into the future with. So, worshipful brother Weber, thank you so much for joining us. It was thank you both. It was an absolute pleasure to have you here. Hopefully, I was worthy. Oh, this was more than this has been absolutely awesome. So thank you again so much.

SPEAKER_06 2:27:26

Yes, thank you, and great job. Keep it up.

SPEAKER_01 2:27:38

Again, we'd really like to thank the worshipful brother Chris Weber for taking some time to come down here to the Newark 97 podcast studio just to share all of that wisdom with us. It was boy, my mind is still blown.

SPEAKER_05 2:27:52

Yeah, I would I would echo all of that. Really appreciate you taking the time to come down here and have that conversation with us and on honestly spread the wealth of you know everything that we just kind of went through there. So thank you again.

SPEAKER_01 2:28:07

Yeah, I mean, boy, that uh that conversation probably could have gone on two, three, four times as long. You know, just yeah, it could have gone in a uh so much longer because again, there was so much wisdom being dropped. So I'm we're just super grateful for that. But this is once again gonna do it for us here at Beyond the Door. We really hope you enjoyed this episode and we look forward to connecting with you each and every month. Please help us grow our audience by subscribing to us on your podcatcher of choice, as well as sharing this podcast with your brothers, friends, and family. Did you enjoy this episode? Please leave us your feedback on that podcatcher of your choice. Again, good reviews only, right?

SPEAKER_05 2:28:52

I'm I'm starting to get on board with this. I kind of want to see the good stuff too.

SPEAKER_01 2:28:56

All the good reviews is what we want.

SPEAKER_05 2:28:58

Or maybe just one. One review. Or two. Yeah, that would be nice.

SPEAKER_01 2:29:01

Maybe 10. Sure. Well, it's not shoot for the moon. Want to get in touch with us? Newark 97 is on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. You can also reach us via email at Newark.97.log at gmail.com. Until next time, stay safe. And as always, search for light in Masonry.