Masonic Legacies - A Father's Day Special

In this special Father's Day episode, co-hosts Chris Crume and Matt Salyer interview Worshipful Brother Steve Salyer and Brother Jim Crume, fathers of the hosts, in a wide ranging interview that focuses on Masonic legacy, lessons learned, being a good father and Mason, and so much more.  This extended length interview is one you do not want to miss!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

This is Beyond the Door, Exploring the Light of Freemasonry. Hello, and welcome again to Beyond the Door, Exploring the Light of Freemasonry. I am Chris Kroom, and once again joined by my co-host, Matt Salier. America 250. Yes, since we will be dropping this episode right before the 4th of July. Happy 4th of July to everyone, and America's 250th. It's wild, isn't it? It's wild to think about that, but then also when you think about, you know, just the history of humanity, how small that really is. It's a great experiment. It is a great experiment. Let's hope it continues.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Yeah, there is that.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

You know, and I think what's really cool too is kind of tying, you know, forefathers into everything that we've got in store for this episode. This is also the episode that drops in June, so we celebrated Father's Day. And we are bringing you a very special Father's Day episode this month where the interview, I think everybody's gonna really like this. You know, we brought our dads in the studio and nothing was really off the table on that, I don't think.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

No, I uh I didn't know exactly where it was gonna go when we started. There's obviously some things that you you kind of plan to ask, right? Especially since we're we're kind of a niche topic here in Masonry. But nevertheless, it took a little bit of a meandering way, but it was a fun journey.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Yeah, I think the journey was really great. You know, we like you said, we knew some of the stories, we knew where some of it was going, but it also took a few unexpected turns and twists, and there might be an embarrassing story or two in there.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

And I learned a little bit about my dad that I would have lost a considerable sum of money on if I had been betting on some of those questions.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

Oh, well, we'll have to talk about that one later because maybe I'll put some money down on that.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

Well, I know it now. I don't think that's a fair bet. That's true. Well, as if summers weren't already busy enough, there's always a job to do in Masonry. So once again, bringing you the calendar. Tuesday, July 6th, 2026, at 7 30 p.m., Newark number 97 will have their stated meeting. Saturday, July 18th, at sunrise, New Home number 338 will have their annual outdoor master mason degree.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

And that's a really cool degree to go see outside if you've never done that.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

Yeah, I I need to get over there.

SPEAKER_01 2:42

Well, I've not. Saturday, July 18th is coming up very quickly. You could always ride with me.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

It it's the sunrise portion on a Saturday that has turned me off in the past, in addition to some other duty, like things that I have to do.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

True. And it's usually a little warm out there too, but it is there's nothing like it to see that degree.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

Yeah, that's that's gotta be done. So we'll talk about that because I want to make that happen. The following day, Sunday, July 19th at 1 p.m., the 19th District Picnic will take place at the Muskingham Valley Scout Reservation in Shockton County. And then finally, Saturday, July 25th at 9 a.m., the 19th District Leadership Phase number three will be hosted here at the Newark Temple. And that's always a good time too.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

You know, if you've gone through the first two phases, this phase is super important on that journey through that leadership program. I thoroughly enjoyed the first two phases. When I got to phase three, I didn't even know what to expect. And it was everything that I had hoped for.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

Correct me where wrong. My my understanding is that they can be done independently, though.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

Yes, they can be done independently. Doing them in order will definitely help you if you you go all the way through.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

But if somebody missed the first one or missed the second one and they're jumping back in, no harm, no foul.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

Correct, correct. You don't have to go to the first phase or the second phase to go to phase three. But you get there and you're gonna be like, what the hell's going on? Even if they even if you've attended one? If you've attended one, you're maybe gonna have a good clue. But if you know, it just depends. Okay. Just depends. But again, I think that's that what's important is that it's getting out there and getting that education, right? I think getting your Masonic education. Digging deep into the code. Dig into the code, dig into the officer's manual, dig into Grandview, learn some things that you didn't know. I mean, I I think back, what, a couple episodes ago when we were talking with Worshipful Brother Chris Weber, and just how much everything that we do is education, and how much everything we do is really preparing folks for these leadership roles.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

Yeah, I couldn't agree more on that. You lost me at Grandview, though.

SPEAKER_01 5:02

There's a lot of great stuff on Grandview. You've just got to be able to know how to dig into it and really where to find things on Grandview.

SPEAKER_00 5:10

Yeah, it's the cataloging that always gets me.

SPEAKER_01 5:12

It is, it is. And there's a lot. That's the problem. There's a lot out there. If you don't know exactly where what you're looking for is, it can make it a little bit daunting.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

That that's it. I mean, I've always been able to find it eventually, but it's it's always been more difficult than it should have been.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

Yeah. I guess it's time to uh kick it on over to that interview. You know, we talked about education, and boy, what an education did you know we got.

SPEAKER_00 5:38

And yeah, I'm excited for folks to hear this. This was a good one. I mean, it's certainly highly personal for the two of us in a lot of ways because it was our fathers, but nevertheless, there's kind of a little bit of a symbolic torch passing and journey included here in, I think.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Yeah. So sit back and enjoy this. I really think everybody's gonna have some fun with this one. All right. Well, it is my distinct pleasure to welcome into the New York 97 podcast studio two, I think, very important Masons in our lives. Outstanding Masons overall. Outstanding Masons overall, but I think more importantly, outstanding people, because this is our Father's Day episode, and our our interview today is with our dads. So with that, I'll introduce my dad first if you want to introduce your dad. My dad is Jim Kroom, and he is currently the junior warden at Mount Moriah number 79. 77. Close enough in is it Anderson, Indiana. Is it Anderson or is it Edgewood? Anderson, Indiana. In Anderson, Indiana. Okay. They're towns kind of like Newark, Heath, Granville, that are all like really super close together.

SPEAKER_00 6:59

So yeah. So welcome. And welcome Steve Salier here into the studio as well. Dad's a 17-year Mason here at Newark number 97. Had actually, I don't, I think you've sat in every single chair. I know you've got your hat trick in the East as well, currently serving as our chaplain. And he's also been, he's a past president of the 19th Masonic District Association. So welcome. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 7:27

Boy, a lot of great service between these two. Uh hopefully someday we can compare. Yeah. Well, you know, we're gonna just jump right in. I think that's the appropriate place to start. So I'm gonna say, I'm gonna ask both of you, you know, tell us a little bit about yourselves, you know, who you are, how long you've been a Mason, what do you do for your normal career, or what did you used to do? Things like that. Tell us about yourselves a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 7:57

Well, a 17-year Mason, like Matt said, I've been an electrician for almost 50 years.

SPEAKER_02 8:07

Self-employed for over 35.

SPEAKER_04 8:13

Raised three children of my own, a step a stepdaughter, and I've got five wonderful grandsons.

SPEAKER_05 8:26

Yeah, and I'm 69 now. Been retired for four years. I highly recommend it. I was a I I like to say I was a paid nerd. For about 43 years I was in the IT industry. So yeah, I like to say I'm I'm a paid nerd. So I it uh it paid the bills and it was a good job at the time. And I've been a Mason for a little over two years now. And so I'm kind of a young as as a lot of people my age go, but loving it and wish I'd done it sooner.

SPEAKER_00 9:02

All right, so either or both of you, feel free to take turns. Any current hobbies or passion projects kind of keep you moving?

SPEAKER_04 9:11

The only thing I do is work and keep the place up. That's about it. And work down here.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

I was gonna say, there's there's plenty to do here at the building. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 9:21

So yeah. I Chris talked me into picking up a bicycle, what about eight, nine years ago, ten years?

SPEAKER_00 9:29

About nine. I think you're supposed to pedal those, not carry them.

SPEAKER_05 9:32

Well, they go faster that way.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

Only when you wreck them, you carry them.

SPEAKER_05 9:36

Yeah, yeah, you don't want to do that. But no, I picked a bicycle up and I've been riding now for about nine years. And since I've retired, I've started playing pickleball. And other than that, I I am involved in disaster relief at at my church.

SPEAKER_01 9:56

So yeah, you've been doing that for about what three or four years now? Three or four years.

SPEAKER_05 10:01

Yeah. It ended up in Georgia a couple years ago in North Carolina.

SPEAKER_04 10:07

That's a good call.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

Not hurricane relief.

SPEAKER_05 10:11

Yeah. Yeah, it was it was completely different. One was all wind and the other was all flood-related damage.

SPEAKER_00 10:17

So makes me glad to be in the Midwest sometimes. Sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

Yeah. Pros and cons. Pros and cons, pros and cons. But you know, sometimes you get windstorms that tear the roof off of your building, too. So yeah. All right. So if you all were stuck on a desert island, tell me, you know, one artist to listen to. Who's on your list? Who's on your playlist? Or you can have your top five too. It's all right. I want to know top five too.

SPEAKER_05 10:58

Let's see. I I think I would go with Aerosmith. Aerosmith had a lot of good music. Toys in the Attic. That that that's what I would take. That's a great album. Okay. I can dig it. Had a lot of good songs. Funny story there. My kids came out from picking them up at school one time. Dad, Dad, you got to hear this great new band. Yeah, who's that? Aerosmith. They have been around since the 70s. They were my band.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

To be fair, Steven Tyler's voice is very different in the 80s than it was in the 70s.

SPEAKER_05 11:37

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

Hard living will do that to you. It will. I just one, you know, in the 80s, one could think, hey, this is a brand new sound. Might be the same people, but they've changed a bit due to some, as you saw, hard living. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

So 80s, 90s, Aerosmith was definitely different. Still good. Definitely different.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

And now he looks like anybody's grandma.

SPEAKER_04 12:04

That good? No.

SPEAKER_00 12:07

Plastic surgery and not aging well are not a combination that I wanted to do good 40 years ago. That's fair. Again, hard living.

SPEAKER_01 12:17

Let that be a warning to anyone. This is what hard living does, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:21

Well, he obviously had to be tough.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

Yeah. Yeah. His heart's been through it, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_04 12:30

No doubt, no doubt.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

What about you, Dad?

SPEAKER_04 12:35

I'd probably pick Dan Fogelberg. I'm more in a single singer-songwriter.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

I do like that. Okay. Any any particular song or album that stands out.

SPEAKER_04 12:50

I like so many of his I can't hardly pick a f there's there's probably ten out of the greatest hits albums that uh I would love of his, but greatest hits are on the table.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

I mean you get to bring a whole album.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

I know what my favorite song of his is Old Lang Zine.

SPEAKER_04 13:10

Yeah, that's a good one.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Same old Lang Zine. Love that one. Autumn hates that one at the holidays, but I'm like, it's a Christmas classic.

SPEAKER_05 13:21

Fokelberger was a great band.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

Oh day handful. Love that song.

SPEAKER_04 13:25

Well, he it he went the multitude. I mean, he went clear across.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

Yeah. Crush genre? Yeah. Okay. That's one I'm not I don't I'm probably familiar with it and don't know it. I honestly would have put money on you saying Rush because you're the one who introduced me to the Rush.

SPEAKER_04 13:43

I do like Rush a lot. 2112 is probably my favorite album, but if I had to be stuck on a desert island, Fogelberg would be a hell of a lot easier to listen to than than all rush all the time. Yeah, yeah. I mean, Getty Lee would would kind of grow on you. Fogelberg about Eric Clapton.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

Oh another one of those guys that went different genres.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

We talking solo or are we talking with cream? That's where I'm going.

SPEAKER_04 14:13

Both. Very different sounds. Yeah. Very different sounds. Well, he he he he traveled the gauntlet throughout his career too. There's there's some of that stuff that I I don't really care for, and then some of it's a best thing ever was.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

Dan Dan Fogelberg reminds me of actually one of my favorite artists right now, which is Paul Thorne. He is he kind of crosses genres of like country blues and a little bit of folk, but he's a singer-songwriter, small artist. Absolutely love him. You might like when we're done tonight, remind me. I'm gonna introduce you to Paul Thorne. He's fantastic. I like a lot of genres.

SPEAKER_04 14:52

I the only thing that I really can't listen to is gangster rap. I just absolutely cannot listen to it. Yeah, a lot of folks can't. But I mean, I like opera, some of it. I like instrumental, I like classical, I like Bach, Beethoven.

SPEAKER_02 15:13

You know, it's you wouldn't think that a hill jack like myself would would actually listen to that, but I do.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

I pick my genres based on the mood I'm in and what I'm trying to do.

SPEAKER_04 15:26

That's exactly what it is.

SPEAKER_00 15:28

Yeah, same. Gotta dial it in sometimes. You need that that slow classical to kind of almost study music to to really I've seen my wife and I have seen Andre Bot Barcelli Boccelli.

SPEAKER_04 15:45

Botticelli? Yeah. Yeah. We've we've seen him two or three times. Oh wow. He's really good.

SPEAKER_05 15:52

Okay. First album I ever bought was a group, and I you can't see the air quotes, but it was a group called uh Assault Peanuts. And basically it was one guy on a saxophone recording nine different parts of jazz, all in harmony.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

See, and I look, I know there are a lot of sophisticated people in the world that'll say jazz is about this and jazz is about that, and it's the notes they're not playing, and I just hear noise. I am not a huge fan of brass instruments.

SPEAKER_05 16:24

Oh, I love jazz. Well, see, a saxophone is different. It's it's a reedy brassy instrument, so it's got a different tone.

SPEAKER_01 16:31

Yeah. What was your first album? I know what mine was. My first the like CD.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

What was your first CD or cassette? The first one that I can remember is the Top Gun soundtrack.

SPEAKER_01 16:43

Yeah, I had that one too. Top gun soundtrack.

SPEAKER_00 16:46

There may be one that predates that that I'm just have memory hold, but that's the first one I can recall.

SPEAKER_01 16:51

I can remember the like that was probably one of my first cassettes. I can remember my first CD, Hootie and the Blowfish, Cracked Review Mirror.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 17:00

And then you came out with Nirvana.

SPEAKER_00 17:02

Yeah, Nirvana was right uh yeah, right around the early to mid-90s were that's where I bought the vast majority of my music.

SPEAKER_04 17:11

Yeah, I threatened to throw it away and now I listen to it. Well, it's on the oldie station now.

SPEAKER_05 17:18

Is it it's in the elevator, if it's yeah, yeah, it's happened to us at this point.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

We always laughed, it's never gonna happen. All of the bands that I like, all of them are on the oldie station now. Yeah, yeah. 80s, 90s, and today. Yeah, yeah. 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s. Yeah, well, that that's all mixed in now. Yeah, you know, you can uh in in in five songs, you can have Metallica Black album, Nirvana, Nirvana, Led Zeppelin. Like it's we're just running the gamut all the way from the Supremes.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

Chuck Berry's in there for some reason.

SPEAKER_04 17:55

Yeah. I've I've been watching a little bit of the clips on YouTube, and you you know, you get these uh Gen Z kids and people that are just discovering this music. The reaction video, it's like, holy crap, they made really good music back then whenever they didn't have all the the ability to to to just have the electronics make it.

SPEAKER_00 18:19

Yeah, the auto-tune and the sampling. Yeah, it's it's it's amazing what happens when real singer songwriters get an actual instrument in their hand and they have some talent. Yeah, it's and and amazing thing happen amazing things happen.

SPEAKER_04 18:31

There was a lot of talent in the 70s and 80s.

SPEAKER_00 18:34

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 18:34

And and there's a reason those guys are still around. They can still sing. They sang then, they sing now.

SPEAKER_04 18:41

Well, not only that, it the the talent in the songs that they wrote, it you I mean, you you don't you don't get that today with today's music.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

There are a few, specifically that I'm aware of in the country genre that are starting to get that old kind of late 70s, early 80s sound back.

SPEAKER_04 19:03

Yes, and and they sh they they rise to the top quickly.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

And and they should, right? Yeah the poppy stuff is no good.

SPEAKER_05 19:10

Right. But well, yeah, when you started having pop stars come over into country and calling it country.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

Whatever sells albums, I guess. Yeah. I mean it's it's an industry for a reason, I suppose. Yeah. Music lost its soul a long time ago.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

Well, yeah. That's a whole nother probably podcast that we could delve into the slightly soullessness of music, but kind of going off of that too, books or movies and why books.

SPEAKER_05 19:40

Every time books books have more in 'em. If you know, if you look at a two-hour movie, a three hour movie on some of these, you know, that they've they've really tried to do right, and it covers a tenth of the book. Just the description and things like that that you get in a book that you don't get in the movie is is is incredible and and there's a lot of nuance that that you miss in a movie. You know, it's it's set up for certain angles and sound and things like that, where in a book it's described and it may be different for you than it is for anybody else. And so I'll I'll take the book anytime.

SPEAKER_04 20:21

Well, the book you can definitely dive into the story. You become part of the story. But after looking at a screen all day, sometimes I'd just as soon just spoon feed that screen again from a distance.

SPEAKER_00 20:39

Yeah, I d I think they each have their place, right? And nobody asked me, but uh there are times that you just want to be entertained, and then there are times when you kind of want to be immersed, and I think those are different experiences.

SPEAKER_04 20:51

Well, the immersion is is is the ultimate experience, right?

SPEAKER_00 20:54

Right.

SPEAKER_05 20:56

Well, there are just certain things that do lend themselves to movies.

unknown 20:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 21:00

Top gun is a great example.

SPEAKER_01 21:02

Yeah. Top gun's not as good as yeah. I don't think you could describe that as like a and then the jet flew by. Yeah. And it went, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

You know, our listeners have been begging for sound. I know they have. I'm glad we could give that to them in episode 10. But no, you're right. The scope and scale sometimes translates better to to the screen, right? The gladiator, for instance. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

And then Russell Crowe stomped over and was like, go way back, Ben Hur. Yeah, you couldn't have put that into a book as easily.

SPEAKER_05 21:40

That is way back. Yeah. But it's a great movie. It still is. Yeah. It's still a great movie. And just the panorama of what you see is incredible.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

I'm just gonna I'm just gonna throw out movie titles in the hope that Chris makes noises, Jurassic Park.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Dear Lord. I could start talking about chaos theory there, but you know, we'll just uh All right. In the book category.

SPEAKER_04 22:09

He just got a new name, Captain Chaos.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

It's pretty accurate. Pretty accurate.

SPEAKER_05 22:14

I'm shaking my head, yes.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

Yeah, you you raised him. I'm sure you got stories that fit right in that bucket. Oh boy.

SPEAKER_05 22:20

Oh boy, don't blame that on me. That's fair.

SPEAKER_04 22:24

No, but you can announce it to the world.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

Yeah, I was gonna say that's gonna happen probably later on.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

All right. So everybody, everybody at the table seems lined on books, at least partially. Fiction or nonfiction? Yes. Okay. That's the right answer.

SPEAKER_01 22:41

I was gonna say that is there's only one correct answer, and it's yes. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have a recommendation of a book or a movie and why? Like what's your most recommended one? You're like, you have to see this, you have to read this, or you can have one of each, I suppose.

SPEAKER_05 22:56

There's a book I've been recommending to people lately. It's called Decision Points. It's George W. Bush's presidential memoir. And it's written differently than any other presidential memoir, in that he takes 10 different decisions he made during his presidency, and he explained why he made each decision, going from things that happened to him in his childhood all the way up to that point in time, and things that influenced him, people that influenced him in his life, and and you know, the the rationale for the decisions that he made. It may not have, and he admits it may not have always been the right decision, but here's why I made it. And it's really a good book. I do recommend it.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

Well, a lot of right decisions you only know are right in hindsight. Right. Right. You can you can only act on the information you've got at the time. Right.

SPEAKER_04 23:46

So well, that's the only way that you really know isn't to let history prove it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

What about you, Dad?

SPEAKER_04 23:56

Probably the best book, the one of the one of the hardest books I've ever read read, and uh took me months to read it, was The Frontiersman by Alan W. Alan W. Eckert. And I'll tell you, it's it's basically he took old journals and letters and all kinds of information from the period of this Ohio country being a territory and and being settled, and he formed a story around Tecumseh and Simon Kenton. At one time, Simon Kenton probably owned two-thirds of Ohio.

SPEAKER_00 24:54

Yeah, certainly this area.

SPEAKER_04 24:56

And, you know, and the interactions between them and the Shawnee, and all of the battles and everything that happened. And he amassed such a quantity of historic data and research for this project for this book, that when he got done writing the book, he wrote six more. Wow. Wow. Off of the off of the original research.

SPEAKER_00 25:26

It's having seen this this on your shelf and actually having tried to read it now twice unsuccessfully, it is a very difficult read, but in large measure because there is so much there are so much footnotes that you have to look at for the context.

SPEAKER_04 25:43

There are probably 200 pages of footnotes in the back of the book that you have to look up because of the context and where this stuff came from and and how it how it is actually related into the book. But the actual play that they do in Chilakothy of Tecumsa came from that book. I'll be darn.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

Yeah, it's it's what I found is I was only finally able to do it because of the audiobook. Because the audiobook was like, I I can't look at a footnote and not like go check it.

SPEAKER_01 26:21

Me too. That's why it's that's why it took me so long. Right. You're going back and forth and back and forth.

SPEAKER_00 26:26

And you you're losing that immersion in the story. And then the audiobook was just like, yeah, we're not doing that. They forced you to just Right.

SPEAKER_04 26:34

And what and what what is your what is your thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 26:37

It was it was very good. Simon Kenton, you know, is kind of an unsung hero of the frontier.

SPEAKER_04 26:44

There are many It's an unknown hero.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

That's what I was gonna say. There are many that got a lot more recognition for the things that they did. But by comparison, I have to imagine that his deeds were at least greater in volume, if not greater in impact. So like just so, so much that's in there around him and well, Tecumseh and Blue Jacket as well.

SPEAKER_01 27:07

So all great choices. Did you have do you have a favorite?

SPEAKER_00 27:12

Oh, you already know mine. But uh are we going fiction or non-fiction? It doesn't matter. Okay, fiction is the Silmarillion. Yeah, I knew unquestionable.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

That's again one of those you kind of have to go back and forth with that is the footnotes.

SPEAKER_00 27:27

It uh it is essentially Tolkien's creation. That explains it.

SPEAKER_05 27:31

Yeah, yeah. It's yeah, it's deep. You you might understand. Lord of the Rings, and then you try to read Silmarillion and you're you're shocked because it's nothing the same.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

It it reads like scripture.

SPEAKER_05 27:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

It reads a lot like scripture. But if we're going if we're going fiction, I'm going Can't Hurt Me by David Goggins. It's a fairly recent book, and but it is highly motivational. I would recommend it to anybody. Audio, the audio version is very, very good as well.

SPEAKER_05 28:00

That's a good book.

SPEAKER_00 28:01

Yeah, sounds like it.

SPEAKER_05 28:02

Fiction for me, anything by Clancy or Dresham. I like both of those authors.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 28:08

But I'll go old school too, and I'll go back to Lord of the Rings.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

I try to read it once a year, but the Silmarillion still has a like head and shoulders above for some reason.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

I think it's the context that comes from that, right? Well, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 28:26

It's it's just more vast.

SPEAKER_05 28:29

Yeah. I can see that. See, I remember when it came out and everyone ran out and got it.

SPEAKER_00 28:35

And we're probably disappointed because they were expecting the Lord of the Rings. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:41

Well, if it if it reads like scripture, you know that it was difficult to put all that together. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:47

Well, he didn't actually put it together. So he he had a vision of putting it together at some point, but unfortunately died. It was his youngest son who took up the editorial torch and took the most finished pieces of it and then kind of the more polished versions that would kind of tie it all together and put it into a narrative. And it it has some appendices and some footnotes in it, too, just because it might not be the right version. He never said, like, hey, this is the one. Right. Wow. Yeah. But yeah, it was it was a passion project of his that he started during World War I, and it unfortunately wasn't completed by the time he died.

SPEAKER_04 29:29

I've been doing the audio book on audio books on on Jordan Peterson. And I'll tell you, I can do him for about an hour or two, and then he uses so many big words, so so much psychology that I've just got to set it on the shelf for a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

Yeah, it it's there's gristle. You gotta chew on that for a while.

SPEAKER_04 29:54

You do, you do. You can't you can't absorb it all at once because he everything is so thought-provoking.

SPEAKER_00 30:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:04

So Silmarillion. Yeah. You're gonna go with that. Stick in with that? Final answer? Oh, yeah. Final answers.

SPEAKER_00 30:09

Final answers since I was like 17.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

Okay, that's fair. What about you? Me, you know, one of my absolute favorite books to read, and I don't read it as often as I should. Theodore Rex. It is part of a trilogy of books, but I think this one's it's the middle book, and it's probably the best out of the three. But it it details, it's a it's a biography of Theodore Roosevelt. And Theodore Rex covers from the minute he takes office after the assassination of McKinley. McKinley. And it goes until the minute that he leaves office after his kind of second term, his term where he was elected. There's another book that details literally from his birth right up until McKinley's assassination, and then there's another one from the minute he leaves the White House until his death. But he was already kind of one of the those like you know most interesting men in the you know in the world type of guys, you know, started the park system, you know, got shot and still gave a speech, you know, larger than life character, but you you know, you listen to you know that time, that that time frame uh frame of history where we were transitioning out of like Civil War and the expansion, you know, the expansionism into that more modern and industrialized civilization that the United States became at that point, you know, right in that late 1800s, early 1900s timeframe. And the decisions that he made that still have ramifications today, you know, Panama Canal, things like that, you know, those are, you know, looking at you know what was going on in the world, it's really a to me, it's a brilliant study of what you know, what that turn of the century America looked like, and just listening to you know, the presidency of probably one of the most interesting men in the world. Again, he could have been selling dosekis because he was the most interesting man in the world. So but I love that book because just the context, and it's not one of those, again, super important president. I mean, he's on Mount Rushmore for Pete's sake, but he's not one of those Mount Rushmore presidents that gets talked about as often, right? He, you know, he created the national park system that wouldn't exist without you know Theodore Roosevelt. And just the importance that he really played, you just don't people, you know, people know who he is just by his look, but they don't really know who he who he is.

SPEAKER_04 32:53

Well, he had to live in that time frame because he certainly couldn't live today.

SPEAKER_01 32:57

No. Well, and he couldn't have lived at the beginning of the country either. He was the right person at the right time to take us from where we were with the Civil War into a more modern civilization. He was that right bridge. And that's what I love you know I love seeing that, you know, and how his mind worked on, you know, as we became that global power before World War I and things like that. So it was it was really interesting. It was a really interesting read. You've recommended that a few times, and I still have neglected to pick it up. Audio there is an audiobook version of it too. I don't know how good the audiobook version is. I've never listened to it. That's one of those that I like to thumb through as I'm reading it because there's a I don't know, I can take my time a little bit more.

SPEAKER_05 33:42

So it it's in my book stack.

SPEAKER_01 33:45

Yeah. It it it's fantastic. I I recommend that book to anybody wanting to just have a good read and get a good solid education of really an important historical figure for turn of the 20th century. Yeah, turn of the twentieth century. I mean, it it I can't recommend it enough, but you know, if you thinking on that same question too, is there a book or a movie that has Masonic you know has to be Masonic or a Masonic theme that has you'd recommend and and why as well? And it can go either way.

SPEAKER_04 34:19

I read a book probably I'm gonna guess it was around 2005, that was written by Steve Berry. It was a fiction. It really got me interested in the Templars. It was a Templar Legacy, was the name. And for me it was a good book. And it it it really brought a lot of the Templar facts forward, but it was fiction.

SPEAKER_00 34:52

Historical fiction. You read it. I think I borrowed this.

SPEAKER_04 34:55

Yeah, you you read it. Yeah. And it is actually what brought me back to be interested in in masonry. Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

I'm gonna have to check that one out from you. I don't know that I have it. I borrowed it from you. No, I'll have to borrow from you then. That'll be fine. I know where to find him. All right. I usually do too, either here or at home. So what about you, Jim?

SPEAKER_05 35:23

Boy, you know, I've not really seen a lot of movies that are Masonically based. Of course, you know, we still know that Riley has all the secrets.

SPEAKER_01 35:31

We're still trying to get over that one. Yeah. Nicholas Cage. We really are.

SPEAKER_04 35:37

I don't know. I I kind of think for uh for the entertainment value, it's a fun movie. It's a fun movie. You're right. It's a great movie. But it but it does, it does, it plays at all of the information that's out there that's so wrong.

SPEAKER_01 35:55

It's really it's like it's like somebody, it's like literally somebody watched one of those documentaries on like History Channel or something about Freemasonry where they get 98% of the facts wrong, and they took those 98% of the facts, put them all in there, and said, those two percent that are actually real.

SPEAKER_00 36:11

Yeah, we're not gonna put that in there. I want I want the guy who wrote the Dan Brown script, and I and I want the guy who wrote the History Channel documentary. I need you guys in a room right now.

SPEAKER_01 36:24

Get me Nicolas Cage. Right. And then we have National Treasure. Yeah. That's about how that went.

SPEAKER_04 36:34

That's one that's a that's although I think Scott Walther was in there something.

SPEAKER_00 36:41

A lot of credibility. No diminishing credibility, rapidly diminishing credibility.

SPEAKER_05 36:48

Everything you wanted to know about Masons is not in that movie. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:55

You're telling me that there's not treasure behind Mount Rushmore.

SPEAKER_00 36:59

I mean, I haven't been there myself, but uh all facts point to no.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

Oh well, guess I'm not going then. You should. I I'd like to, but I meant on top of it. I have been.

SPEAKER_04 37:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 37:11

There is there is a There's a museum in the back, isn't there? Or what was supposed to be a museum.

SPEAKER_04 37:16

It was supposed to be a museum, but it it has never materialized and for good reason.

SPEAKER_01 37:23

I thought I read that they actually had opened up some of that for America's 250th. If I I thought I read an article about that. They may have. Yeah. Yes, for sure.

SPEAKER_04 37:34

I think I don't know that it was open to the public.

SPEAKER_01 37:36

I think they've done a little bit of that for the America's 250th. I may be 100% wrong, so people can fact check me whatever they want. But I thought I read an article about that recently. I can't remember where. I think they're using it for a for a depository.

SPEAKER_02 37:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:53

Or a repository. No.

SPEAKER_00 37:56

Is it documents? Is that the idea?

SPEAKER_01 37:58

It wasn't that. They're opening one of the lower levels of the Lincoln Memorial. That's what it was. Ah, okay. I did read that, which is kind of cool too. So Yeah, well, that segues perfectly into, you know, really the heart of our conversation is, you know, family and masonry. And we're going to jump right into your journeys. So, you know, I guess, Dad, I'm going to ask you first, you know, what was your why? You know, what or who you know influenced you to get that petition out? Why did you say, yeah, this is a journey that I'm going to take?

SPEAKER_05 38:31

Well, interestingly, I knew if if if if I knew next to nothing about masonry, that's probably an exaggeration of how much I actually knew about masonry. But my you know, my my family is is not Masons, but my wife's family, I mean, it goes back three or four generations. I just came into possession of her great grandfather's ritual book. Oh published, I believe the uh copyright on it is 1914 or something like that. And reading it is really a chore because you know, so much is and it's not that the rituals themselves have changed, they've changed not that much. But the way they wrote the ritual books back then was the ciphers changed. Yes. Wasn't it all like pictorial or like kind of like hieroglyphs or almost something like that almost? A lot of glyphs along with letters and things like that. And if you know the rituals, then you can kind of figure out what the different glyphs are. But it's it's an interesting thing. But I didn't grow up in that. My wife did. And so, you know, I knew my father-in-law was a mason. He talked about it some, didn't talk about it a lot. And it's one of those things I got interested in probably when I was oh 35. But I really didn't know anybody in masonry. And it's you know, I got busy raising my kids, working, things like that. And I guess I just didn't get around to it until I'd retired and and then I then I got more interested in masonry. And in fact, after Chris joined the Masons, then then I became more more interested in Masonry.

SPEAKER_01 40:25

He saw I was having a good time and was like, huh, maybe I should do that too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:29

I'm I'm immensely curious about these pictograms and if there is perhaps a cipher in your lodge's archives.

SPEAKER_05 40:39

Now that I would have to check. In fact, I'm not even sure where our archives are.

SPEAKER_01 40:44

I know where ours are at. Same. And there there might be ciphers in there. Yeah. I think the Ark of the Covenant's back there, too.

SPEAKER_04 40:53

I doubt it.

SPEAKER_01 40:54

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 40:55

Art stored everything back there. We'd have had to have it first, though. That's fair. If if we had had it once, it would absolutely be back there. It's probably in the basement then. No. No.

SPEAKER_05 41:06

It was moved.

SPEAKER_01 41:07

No, okay.

SPEAKER_05 41:08

In fact, you don't know this. I just I just came into possession of your grandfather's Masonic Bible.

SPEAKER_01 41:14

Actually, I did know that because mom sent me a photo when she was bringing it back. The only that's the other same. She she texted me a photo of it when she was coming back from from grandma's house, I think a couple, what about a month or two ago. You know, they were cleaning out some of Pa's stuff, and she's like, Yeah, we found it and brought it home.

SPEAKER_05 41:36

Right. And and I have his monitor too. Oh.

SPEAKER_00 41:39

I can't wait to see those. All all of a similar age.

SPEAKER_05 41:42

No. His his Bible and his monitor were from when he was raised. But the he used his his grandfather's cipher book. Gotcha. Or his his uh ritual book.

unknown 41:55

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 41:56

Man, that's that's cool.

SPEAKER_01 41:58

Yeah, I've seen that. And it's I mean, it's pretty fragile, it's pretty delicate. It's one of those that like, you know, it's like a white glove type thing. You're like, okay, I'm really holding a document from 1914 or whatever, 15, and it's like, this is over a hundred years old. I better not sneeze.

SPEAKER_05 42:16

Right. And and you can tell it's been well used. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:18

Yeah. But I think that's the cool part is it's yeah, it's been well used, which tells you a lot about at least it tells me a lot about, you know, the family's history with that. It wasn't like, you know, something pristine where you, you know, you you're cracking that spine for the first time. It's got no spine left. I mean, it's literally got no spine left, which that I uh that made gave me some chills when I held it the first time. That's a character.

SPEAKER_00 42:45

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:46

It it's it's really incredible. It really is.

SPEAKER_00 42:49

That's a neat find. That's that's very cool.

SPEAKER_05 42:52

Uh in fact, I'm going to show it. There's a gentleman in our lodge, he's actually a past grandmaster in Indiana. And he works at the Masonic Museum in Indianapolis, and he should be back from Arizona now. He goes to there for the winter, so I'm I'll be taking it in to show him.

SPEAKER_01 43:09

I'll be curious to hear what he has to say about it.

SPEAKER_02 43:11

Yeah, me too.

SPEAKER_00 43:16

Oh Lord. What about you, Dad? What got you interested?

SPEAKER_04 43:23

Well, I was around it at work when I worked. I'm in my mid-20s. There was a lot of Masons around. And there was as many Masons as there were non-Masons. And among the non Masons, there was always that banter going on that you can't get a promotion around here because of the Masons will take it. But so there was always that, and there were some things going on in my life that prevented me from joining. And wouldn't happen to have been kids and work and everything else. So finally when I was in my late forties, I decided that the kids are gone. And I developed some interest back in it and determined that, you know, I need to pursue this for or I'll regret maybe not doing that. And it's been a wonderful journey.

SPEAKER_00 44:29

Yeah, what was it like going in without any friendly faces?

SPEAKER_04 44:35

I had uh one fellow that I knew but only somewhat and coming in and meeting everybody and Gilbert Kogensparker was very influential in talking to me and pulling me the the final pulls in in to you know hey come on just come on you can't I remember you're interested so just come on in. I remember Gilbert yeah and and Dick Lewis you know Dick Dick helped me study every degree I sat on his back porch many nights and and studied.

SPEAKER_00 45:22

That's the one thing about this lodge you might not know anybody but you'll have friends shortly if you join. Yeah and it'll probably be Richard too so he'll be involved yeah that's for sure.

SPEAKER_04 45:33

I will tell you that that I have met a lot a lot of good men since I joined this lodge and when I I worked with the district going around to the state and also in 2018 I got to know the grandmaster a little bit and because of because of the way that the district works and he put together a cruise to the Caribbean and you could purchase a ticket you and your wife and go we went my wife and I went we actually performed an interapprentice degree on the ship did you have the ship sail east and west yes okay no no we set the room we set the room up by the way it was it was sailing okay and no it was it was wonderful I mean we we we did the degree it was masons from all over the state of Ohio and if there were any masons on the cruise they were invited.

SPEAKER_00 46:57

Was this a pro tem candidate?

SPEAKER_04 46:59

Yes okay and but I met a lot of wonderful guys on that on that and and w and ladies on that on that cruise and we had a lot of fun did a lot of things I mean it was it was kind of neat.

SPEAKER_00 47:17

Doing an EA on a cruise ship was was not in my I'm getting my mind blown a little bit that was that was not on what I thought would be a topic of conversation. That's that's interesting. Were they all Ohio Masons? If there was a Mason on board and we knew about it, they were invited provided they could prove that they were they were well I just know from our friend across the table here and from Chris that we don't have exact overlap no cross jurisdictions.

SPEAKER_04 47:53

No that was that was the reason for my inquiry but but they but they took part okay they didn't have a role but they took part.

SPEAKER_00 48:01

Okay. So it was an Ohio degree.

SPEAKER_05 48:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 48:04

Okay. Oh the grandmaster was on the cruise right yes well he can actually say that's okay uh and did yeah I'm not I'm not questioning what the allowability I'm just wondering if there was infighting about how to go about it. Right grandmaster can say we'll do whatever we want and you say yes sir.

SPEAKER_05 48:24

Yeah I I know what you're referring to and uh we came over for actually your inspection yeah what was it about 12 12 from our lodge yeah you guys had a good turnout you guys could have taken home the traveling gavel actually they probably should have pictures did you get your picture with it we did get a picture with it did they let you take the picture yeah okay no no we'll send it to you no it was electronic we're good but we we came over but we had to get permission and basically we had to apply to our grand lodge and our grand lodge coordinated with your grand lodge and and then through uh through them to your to your lodge.

SPEAKER_04 49:03

That's typically how it works.

SPEAKER_01 49:05

Yeah like I if if that was the first time I'd gotten a form it's like hey these 12 guys are gonna visit your lodge I was like okay yeah hey Brian here you go formality outside but no I mean to me that actually you know again I think about that too and just the differences I've seen them both now and it's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00 49:29

You're gonna have to come with me one of these days both of you are gonna have to come with us I'm gonna have to venture outside the state one of these days see some degree work. Yeah the differences are really kind of of interesting I I've heard them described and I can kind of imagine them but I'm sure it doesn't do it justice.

SPEAKER_04 49:45

So Worst World or Mark Craig he's got some property down in West Virginia and he he visits a local lodge down there.

SPEAKER_00 49:55

Yeah and is that one of the ones where it's all still it's ancient ancient okay that's what I was going to say and he he was like he had a little trouble the first night so he got pulled aside and but I'm imagining that kinda I imagine he handled it fine yeah but it was probably a little bit like embarrassing just because you yeah even when you know your stuff you get step into a new jurisdiction well and that ancient form that ancient form is from what I understand very different.

SPEAKER_01 50:34

He can tell you it is a good it is a good story. It's not one that I think we can share here but no no no I do want to hear that one day I'll have to ask him next time I see him it stated you know as you think about you know your moments leading up to that entered apprentice degree both of you what was going through your mind leading up to that degree because I know we've talked about this with other guests and amongst ourselves what was going through our mind but what was going through y'all's mind?

SPEAKER_04 51:03

Go ahead Jim I you're you're more recent than me so I can just remember standing back sitting out in the lobby while they were opening and thinking what in the world am I doing?

SPEAKER_05 51:21

You know because I don't know anything about this nobody really does until you get into it but that that whole feeling of this is this is really something I don't know anything about and I'm about to do it and this is this is way out of my comfort zone.

SPEAKER_01 51:39

So yeah that was it was I can remember the conversation or lack thereof almost on the way home from that because I was able to go out for all of his degrees and I'm sitting there trying to you know and he's like I'm not sure yet still hadn't processed it all after it was over my folks' house and I'm like what did you think? Tell me a little bit about this and then he's like I don't know yet like because it was a little quiet and I'm sitting there like all right well I better break this quiet you know because I don't like quiet in a car.

SPEAKER_00 52:16

But I I mean gentlemen jump in if you disagree I think that's the right reaction. Yes because if you're if you're too eager and you I don't think that you have given it the proper deference and amount of thought. Yeah. Does that make sense? No like you I I think you're actually sit with it for a minute to really understand.

SPEAKER_05 52:35

Well interestingly uh our lodge has a custom where the junior warden actually confers entered apprentice degrees. So I've learned that and you wouldn't you wouldn't believe how much I've actually come to understand now about what happened back then. It's and I'm still learning.

SPEAKER_04 52:55

It's you will and you will every time every single time. There'll be a a lecture there'll be there'll be a part of the charge there'll be something that someone will say with a certain inference on a certain word and it will bring a whole new meaning to the entire sentence that he just said and a whole new lesson will pop into your brain and that has happened to me for 17 years.

SPEAKER_05 53:28

Yeah it's really interesting too because you've you've heard it before but maybe you glossed over it or something like that or the way it was spoke or the way it was spoken or or something like that. But now you know you either hear it differently or you're sitting here reading it and figuring out oh so that's what that means.

SPEAKER_00 53:51

Well not to be too philosophical but I mean we're we're kind of new people every day. We're learning something we're having different life experiences. I've always told new guys that like you're there will be a new problem that'll present itself or you'll have be exposed to a new situation and you'll then hear that degree and for whatever reason that'll pop into your head and you'll you'll take something new away from it because of that. Like that's kind of the way I've looked at it. It it's but like you it's not quite 17 years every every single time we do degree work it it just something will hit a little bit different.

SPEAKER_04 54:27

And it's not every time I I won't say it's every time but I I will say that every year I I I'd say one out of every two that I go see, whether it's here any other lodge, I will take something new away from it.

SPEAKER_00 54:45

Yeah.

unknown 54:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 54:46

There there's just so much to take in and and you know other Masons who've been through this know you're you're experiencing this for the first time and you really are in a place that you've never actually you've never been in this position before. And so things just hit you differently and stay with you and so you miss other things. And you have to go see it.

SPEAKER_00 55:15

It's also it's also easier when you're not the focal point.

SPEAKER_05 55:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:19

If you if you're not worried about your oh you know doing your part and you're not worried about kind of being the center of attention and you have that luxury of just kind of sitting back and just watching it happen. That's when it tr that's when it tends to happen to me the most. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:33

And that one that's why you know whenever we you know initiate somebody during inspection season I always talk to them about hey the next three entered apprentice degrees are going to be here, here and here. Go see it. Go see it. Number one, it'll help you as you memorize things but number two you get that experience on the other side.

SPEAKER_04 55:56

Well you really need to as you're going through the degrees the the problem is is people are busy.

SPEAKER_05 56:01

Yeah they are that's that's the problem they are we we do always try to get our our new inner apprentices to other innered apprentice degrees yeah and you know fellowcraft master mason no because I mean that's it it fills in a lot of blanks that's for sure.

SPEAKER_04 56:18

Well it it not only that it helps on the on the examination. Yeah yeah I mean you start to understand a little bit more about what happened to you and why it happened to you.

SPEAKER_01 56:30

Yeah and yeah I mean I can remember geez I think it was like a week after you had gone through your degree yeah I called you on my way home from work or something you're like oh yeah we're going to see an EA degree this week I was like you go yeah you do that that's awesome so I probably went to three or four. Yeah I mean at least in Ohio around inspection season that's very easy to do. Yeah you're not wrong. Because I know and we can get into some of these differences later but I know in Indiana they don't have those inspections so you are relying on going to actual degree work for you know a live candidate or even a pro tem candidate.

SPEAKER_05 57:09

Right.

SPEAKER_04 57:09

Well I I don't know that I've ever been to a pro tem really no I've never seen a dead candidate we always hope they're real live candidates instead of real dead ones I saw a candidate leave why don't we change that to active active active you wait you very active defibrillator repeat that you said you saw a candidate leave yeah what we we were visiting another lodge and he was at dinner and then he left before yes we had we had we had a inspection candidate get through the floor work to the lecture and left he was having a kidney stone oh no oh I don't know it yeah and we we had to bring him back after he recovered and put him through that but you talk about we had a hundred and fifty men in that room 130 men in that room and and they were like what happened you know and and we and it's a fair question. Fair question yeah and and we you know he he was sick and yeah and we had to but he didn't leave in an ambulance so everybody didn't realize how sick he was a weird time to do an Irish goodbye yeah I can hear some of the old timers grumbling right now yeah he he doesn't belong to the lodge anymore he demitted and and he lives in New York yeah and he demitted to New York yeah so but wow oh my that's one of those it's like it's like that John Travolta meme from oh Pulp Fiction yeah yeah I follow going back to that Steve what was your what was it like you know the moments leading up to your entered apprentice utter terror I mean really I I mean I was I was contemplating whether I should just leave do I really want to do this you know having a few joksters in the in the crowd uh you know what in our lodge joksters they'd uh you know indicated that there might be a goat somewhere and I was like oh crap what is this you know and and then once we got started it was okay it was uh it was but but I can tell you I was I was utterly nervous all the way through the entire thing and I don't think I remembered a third of it. Oh yeah and you know it took me probably until the second degree to get to the point where I actually had enough trust in everybody to to relax enough to to go through it and learn something.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:54

Yeah I share that exact sentiment because I think that's exactly what my first thoughts were you know again coming in literally not knowing a single soul here and I'm sitting in the preparation room I'm just sitting there going what the actual hell have I gotten myself into what am I doing what what am I wearing what what is this they're blindfolding me? Where am I what is going on? And it was probably not until the master mason degree that I felt comfortable and I was like okay I can trust these guys but that then I was out at New Home so it was a brand new set of guys and I'm like oh but again that one was really cool and then anybody that hasn't been to the sunrise service out there or ritual I would go say see that. But that's another that's another story for another time. But I echo that I was like you know and it's funny that you mentioned the goat because as soon as as soon as I did my degree like the next day I think my mom was actually up at my grandparents and I'd called to just talk and my mom you know my mom or my grandpa asked whom my mom was talking to and she she uh she said oh I'm talking to Chris he goes did he get an ordinary goat you know it's funny he he asked after yeah he he asked your mom about me he said did he ride the goat and did they knock him on his ass it just it's just everywhere. Yeah yeah we're per we're perpetuating it oh yeah yeah I mean as hazing goes this is very very very low hanging fruit very it is it is but but you know it it there's a commonality throughout the entire country you know yeah well and that's what that's what made me feel comfortable I was like all right they're joking about that here they're joking about it in Indiana all right this is a commonality this is this is just the thing that's a joke every Mason will get yep but it it also put me a little bit more at ease too just a little bit I'm like okay I can go back to these guys I think I think pretty sure it sounded like it ended in two question marks I think yeah so no I I it's good to hear that though because again that's I felt the exact same way I think I felt the same actually I think I felt more nervous you know looking at you know where you know kind of where I'm I'm steering this next question though is I felt more nervous before my first return yeah than during the degree.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:36

Yeah especially long form because I think everybody in this room did long form returns if I remember right yeah well I can tell you that I knew it before I walked in there and that blue carpet just sucked it right out because there was blue carpet in that room. It's the same blue carpet that's on like then the day stage the stages right yeah it was it was throughout that room until until pretty recently when we pulled it up and polished the pine just before COVID right at when covet hit yeah we we pulled that carpet up and and sanded that floor and and put the urethane down.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:16

Yeah but yeah it it does it sucks it right out of your brain you you walk right in there and you're like what's my name yeah it's even worse than the mascot's chair the first year yeah because it's it's like there's a huge vacuum underneath of that chair just sucks everything out it's like a black hole yeah it's like a black hole well it it that's exactly what the east does it draws in everything it draws in eyeballs it draws in responsibility it's like there is a black hole under there it you know I'll I'll never forget my first week in the East I was let's see elected on a Tuesday installed on a Saturday and doing a Master Mason degree a week after that yeah like literally less than two weeks and it's like well you're gonna do a master mason degree for an active candidate not a real dead one not a live one an active candidate I'm pretty sure I told you you didn't have to do it and I would do it if you wanted me to yeah but I wanted to do it.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:23

Yeah I was like it's my job it's my responsibility I didn't want to make you seem like I pushed you off the high dive it's all right you know interestingly and and my dad can probably confirm this story that's the only way I actually learned kind of how to dive is I was a swimmer most people know that growing up and you know diving off of the starting blocks that was not something I could do at all it was awkward. I mean my my chest would be as red as a tomato right just from right that and I had a coach she took me out to the desktop Diving board, said lay down. He literally picked me up by my ankles, hung me over the side, and went like this. He's like, go streamlined, did this, and then dropped me in so that I did that kind of for those who can't see it.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:15

He's dipping him up and down so that his head and upper body are going in and out of the water.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:20

Yeah. Seems like it sounds like a bully shaking change out of your shorts.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:24

Kind of. Pretty much, except you're wearing a speedo, so there's not much change anywhere.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:29

Thanks for the visual.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:30

You're welcome. He called it plunger. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:35

But yeah. So and from evermore, he was able to go off the blocks. He did not want to do that again.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:43

Sounds like getting waterboarded upside down. Do you have video of this?

SPEAKER_05 1:06:48

I do not. I was told about it by his coach later.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:53

If you had video, you could probably sell it. Oh, I'm sure you probably could.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:58

Put that up on YouTube, it'd get all kinds of hits.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:00

I'm sure. Yeah, I'm I'm I'm sure. But but again, that that it's like again, diving in head first. That you know, you got to get pushed sometimes to get that going. So, you know, as you think about you know, those returns, you think about you know feeling comfortable in lodge. Is there someone that you know, you're like, yeah, they showed me the ropes, they made me feel like I was welcomed. And you know, who are those honorable mentions in your Masonic journey?

SPEAKER_05 1:07:29

Oh golly, I'll go with our secretary, Ed Witt. He he taught me the he we we call them the crossfire's in Indiana. And I don't know why, we just do. So he taught me all of those. He's taught me all of each of the rituals and everything that I've learned. And he's just been w whenever I've I just text him, hey, you available? Sure. So we call and he he knows I'll I'll call and we'll go through some of it, and then I'll get on my bicycle and I'll work on it because that's when the blood is flowing, and then I seem to re you know, memorize things better. So, but yeah, Ed has really been a help to me. And just let me give him a plug. Not this year, last year is Secretary of the Year. Yeah, very good. Yeah. Oh, and and you want to talk about the crossfire. He was taking me visiting. I'd probably been an inner apprentice for two and a half weeks. And or maybe three. And I had learned the crossfire mostly, and we were going through it on the way there. So when we get there, they're looking for people to help, you know, fill in the different things. And he says, Ah, you're ready. And he signed us up to do the crossfire. So I'd been a Mason three weeks and was doing a crossfire in front of a lodge when they initiated an enterprise entered apprentice.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:01

Pushing him off the deep. Am I correct in thinking that the crossfire is the candidate and the master craftsman? It's the returns. That's what I thought. Just wanted to make sure I understood the vernacular. Got it. Yep.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:14

So yeah, that that was my experience. It was terrifying. It was terrifying.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:22

I do not consent.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:27

Bleak once if you're okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:30

What about you, Steve? Who who were Well, like I say, Gilbert Kokos Barker was was one and but Dick Lewis, you know, he was he was my mentor just about all three degrees. Uh he dragged me to every inspection he could get me to go to and introduced me to people that and I saw people that I knew for years at these inspections, and they're like, You're a Mason. I said, Well, I'm trying to be. You know, and I think we're all trying to be. Yeah. Well, I was I was just an apprentice, you know. And uh it was it was like I'm trying to be, and they said, No, you are. You you you've already you've already done it.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:25

You earn the title. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:27

And uh, you know, I we did that all over the all over the district. And but he would drag me all those things, and we would just have a ball going. And we get a carload, four or five guys, and we just go do those things. But I miss that, but uh quite frankly, uh just I've been too busy to go.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:49

Yeah. That seems to be a theme. I'd like to see it come back, but I mean, it's it's hard. And especially I know we're gonna get to it a little bit later, but we've got we've got three guys with kids under one. Yeah, I know. In this lot.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:03

Yeah. We used to do that with grandlots. We'd we'd, you know, it's it's a three-hour drive up there. We'd all meet here, we'd fill the van up, yeah, and there'd be five guys, six guys pop in that van, and we'd take off and go to Cleveland or wherever the heck it was, and and we would stop and eat breakfast, and Dick was always the bus driver. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:29

And we I think that was the case up until maybe three years ago.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:33

Yeah. I rem I I actually had the the the fortune to travel, I think it was him, Art, Tom, and Floyd, I think. All four of them, and then I was in the back. I'll bet that was a tough trip. Oh, it was it was it was fun. There's a lot of hearing aids in there. There was a lot of hearing aids, and it was all the way over to actually it was all the way over to three rivers, so it was in Kashockton too.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:03

So they're they're but but the knowledge was great.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:07

That's close to a hundred years of history and the way over that. Probably closer to two. I think Richard's at about 40. I'm not sure about Tom. Oh, he's uh he's got it, he's 50 here. Is he? Oh, then well over, yeah, well over a hundred.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:22

Yeah. Floyd is uh 60. Floyd's 60 years, and so I mean you you take and then Arthur, he's he's 40 or 50. So I mean closer to two. Closer to 200. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:36

I mean, and here's me, like, hi, I'm six months. I had like I added the six months in there. I'm new here. Well, and and to me, it was just listening to all the the the stories that you know, the stories from their time. They're like, oh, you remember when we went here for you know, Gashockton for that? And I'm like, no, but I'm listening. This is amazing.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:01

And it is, it really is. That's that and that's part of it. I I think that that's part of handing the torch.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:09

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was fun because again, what two years ago, you, me, and Greg all drove down to Dayton for Grand Lodge. Yep. So it was kind of one of those where we got up early, we all met here, drove down to Dayton, fought for parking, fought for parking, realized we'd forgotten aprons, had to go buy overpriced ones at the Masonic Exchange. Masonic B Bazaar or whatever it is that you have. Then we went and had lunch at some place that Greg took us in not the greatest of neighborhoods. We did stick out a little bit there. Yeah. And then we came back for the voting. And we had lunch at Waffle House.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:54

That sounds right. I think so. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:56

But it it made for good stories. Oh, it's great stories. Um traveling is some of the best. I love it. You get to know people a lot better.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:04

Oh, yeah. You do get all the stories. It's it's fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:08

I still have that overpriced apron too. Oh, so do I. Well, you paid too much for it. You can't get rid of it.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:15

Yeah. It's just make sure it's in your suit pocket when you go to Grand Lodge.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:19

I quite it is quite literally my Grand Lodge apron now. It is mine too. I keep it actually in my car.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:25

Right. Just in case. I took one out of the drawer upstairs and have it in my that's the way to do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:30

And you always got one then. And I was a senior guy. I mean, I'm not I'm not absolving myself of any responsibility here. I should have been smart enough to know, like, hey guys, we need to do this. But I wasn't. Well, it's it was early in the morning. Well, I'm not the that's a that's a night before plan. That's because you know you're not going to make the right decision at 4 30 in the morning. You gotta you gotta have it together the night before.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:54

Well, the last time I went to Kalahari, I walked clear across that daggone place. Oh my god. Clear to the end over there. Do you remember?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:02

Yeah, I do. And you'd left it in the car.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:04

Wasn't the apron. It was my it was my deuce card. I left it it I left because I'm I minimized on my wallet and I didn't have it in my wallet, and it was in a another wallet in the truck.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:17

Have you been to Kalahari in St. It's a huge resort. This was it was probably a 10-minute walk back to the vehicle easily. And the on when and when you get back, you gotta wait in a line for 30 minutes to get in. The Grand Lodge communication is kind of a big deal.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:33

Well, well, yeah. It's Grant Grand Lodge in Indiana is at the uh Scottish Wright Cathedral. And there's usually pretty decent parking, but sometimes you do get out there.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:46

Well, this was just across the resort to get to the parking lot.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:50

And then you had to walk another 10 minutes in the parking lot, usually, depending on the room. And it was raining uphill both ways.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:56

Yeah. No, I I do remember that that was rough because that was me and Steve Wofter standing there like, oh man, that sucks.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:07

They were thinking I gave them my proxy that I was carrying just in case I didn't come back.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:13

You can yeah, it was it was pretty rough. I'm like, he might stay out there. He's got podcasts, he's got audiobooks. He'll be fine. Did he have a snack? I probably we had time to go get another cup of coffee, thank God.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:31

What you don't understand is I live in my truck. So yes. Oh, so you did have snacks.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:36

There were provisions. Okay, fantastic. You know, I think you know, I we've been pretty clear about our journeys through the chairs. You know, your journey's been a little bit hopscotchy. He's been a zigzag. He's been a little hopscotchy. Mine's got on a little hopscotchy. You're more linear than I'm a little bit more linear. And knowing that both of you, you know, you're in the line or you've been in the line, talk about that and what it's been like. You know, I know what our experiences have been, but we're curious on y'all's experiences.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:07

Well, I was raised at the end of March in 2009. And the first day in Lodge after I was raised, our junior deacon had resigned and left the lodge. And I walked in and they said, sit here. So I was senior deacon pro tem for the rest of the year.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:39

Senior, not junior?

SPEAKER_04 1:17:41

Um I'm sorry, junior deacon. Okay. Junior deacon. Still junior deacon. Still.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:44

A little less daunting.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:46

Yes. And then and then in November when when elections were, they put me to senior deacon. Because you've done it. You did the chair. Yeah. And then and then junior warden, and then senior warden, and then mastered the following year.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:08

Did you ever go back and punch that ticket, or have you never been elected junior deacon?

SPEAKER_04 1:18:13

I have never been elected junior deacon.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:16

No kidding. We have that in common. Oh, that you've never been.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:22

Oh, you weren't? You were protentive. I've never been a single deacon. Junior Junior Warden. Junior. Junior steward to junior warden. That's right.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:36

It's right next door.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:37

That's that honestly.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:39

Literally, that's the trip.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:41

So honestly, I I can't recall if I've shared this or not, but that is literally why I got the job. Because the gentleman who had the job before me was self-employed, ran his own business, worked crazy hours. I had a ritual book and I was, I would prompt him. And being the absolute naive moron that I can be, he was in he was unable to be there on the night of election. And I had prompted him enough that I felt comfortable with it. And I I basically volunteered to sit in so we could open. And that's how I'm I'm I'm gonna say this in air quotes, earned that chair. But it was just a massive promotion just based on complete naivete.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:25

They never told you never to volunteer, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:27

Uh it it yeah. I I don't know what I don't know what compelled me to do it. Hindsight being 2020, I I kind of there's a part of me that wishes I'd done something a little bit more linear, but at the same time, I helped out the lodge. So no regrets.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:43

That's that's the important thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:45

Yeah. What about you, Dad?

SPEAKER_05 1:19:47

Okay, let's see. I think I had been a master mason, is it a month or two months, and our junior warden didn't show up. They said, here, sit here. You don't have to say anything, do what he does. Okay. And a couple months later, they did that to me with the senior warden. What warden or deacon? Sorry, deacon.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:10

Oh, okay. I was gonna say, woof, that's a quick promotion to steward.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:13

Steward, steward, steward, steward. Yeah. So then uh the last year, which would have been my you know, first full year, they elected me as the junior deacon. And about three months in, the guy that was the senior deacon, who had been our worshipful master the year before, was just kind of filling a hole in the line, said, let's switch. So we switched for the rest of the year, and they just kept now now. I'm the junior warden, and if the lodge will have me, then we'll see if I move along the line.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:48

They will. I'm sure they will. What's been your favorite chair so far?

SPEAKER_05 1:20:53

So far? Oh, senior deacon without without question.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:57

It's absolutely the crown jewel. You've not done it.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:59

Yeah, you haven't done that one yet. You're the only one at the table that hasn't done that yet. Painfully aware.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:04

It is it is definitely the uh other than the master's chair for different reasons. Yeah. It is the best chair in the lot. No, including the master's chair.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:14

I was just saying, I think to me, I think including the master's chair, it it is the that's probably my favorite. I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:21

I I mean to be fair, I've sat in the master's chair once.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:25

So you you are you are intimate with every candidate that comes through that door. You you are their anchor. You are the face of the loss to that candidate.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:37

You you're responsible for them. You're responsible for their experience.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:41

Yeah. That's right. Exactly. And that's that's why I love it, because you're their anchor. You're the, I mean, other than like, you know, the stewards or you know, the the Tyler who might be helping them get ready in the preparation room, you're the person that, you know, you take them into that lodge, and you are the one I always try to put it as you make them feel comfortable.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:02

Well, not only that, you're their guide. You're yes, and and and beyond the guide, you become the guide outside of that degree work. Yeah. They they start to lean on you. Yes. And you form a bond that's unbreakable.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:21

Yeah. Well, and and especially in the entered apprentice degree. Yes. They know nothing. Yeah. And and you really are, to them, I mean, they're they're this is the person I follow.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:35

Yeah. You, I mean, you're their anchor. It's you're you're the anchor that keeps them grounded in what's going on and keeps them from saying, you know what? I think I'm gonna duck out at the lecture here and not come back. Um seriously, it's that I mean that that's what you're that's what you're you know, if you're doing your job right, you've made them feel so at ease, as much as, you know, I guess at ease as you can, to where they say, you know what, I'm going back in because this guy, he was really cool about, you know, he's really cool.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:05

You you you owe it to yourself to get in that chair.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:08

Yeah, punch that ticket, man.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:09

Oh, it is it's it's it's written in history already. It just hasn't happened.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:14

Yeah, I this is something I want to do. It's it's honestly the needs of the lodge at this point. Yeah. For me.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:20

And that's what what it's been for me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:23

The only the only chair that I don't really like was the Tyler. It's it's it's it's tough. It's tough to go to lodge if if that's where you're at. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:39

I could see that.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:40

Yeah, it's tough. It's tough. We used to have a guy that loved the job. Yeah, he was there for 30 years. And when he when he got too bad health-wise to come to to lodge, we've been struggling for that position ever since. But for 30 years he sat outside the door, and I don't know that he could do I don't know that he ever attended lodge in inside the whole time that I knew him. Like the job though. He he he loved coming down here and and spending time with the guys, but he didn't really need to be inside. He'd he'd been uh he'd been all the way through the chairs, and when I became master the first time, he had a little workshop in his garage and he built me a gavel of my own and and presented it to me. And I still have that gavel to this day.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:41

And you know, before the end of the year, then Mark made me one as well. And I have it as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:50

Yeah. That was a neat tradition there for a while.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:56

If I had any sort of woodworking skills, I would do that, but uh, I'd cut a finger off. So that's true.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:07

Just I'm envisioning you in front of a table saw wearing a shirt that says like I need supervision or something ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:15

Yeah. No, it call me lefty.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:19

I have no room to talk. I I ran a table saw up about an eighth inch up my thumb once. And that'll wake you up. Luckily, it didn't go any further and and it grew back and lizard tail. Yeah. And the nail grew back and and it was okay. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:43

Fortunately, it was uh it was a very sharp blade and it it's I'd bet a considerable sum of money that some duct tape put that back together.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:52

Immediately so I could finish the project. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:56

I I knew I got it from somewhere. I knew I got it from somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:02

Are you guys either or both of you are you involved in other pendant bodies with masonry?

SPEAKER_04 1:26:08

I am I am a member of the Scottish Rite. I'm not active. I am also a member of York Rite. I am past sovereign master of AMD, Heart of Ohio 258.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:27

And currently active in that.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:36

And in the process of starting to join the grotto, I think.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:42

One that I'm also interested in eventually.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:45

Yeah, I'm you're joining too, aren't you? Yeah, I just need my just need my hat size.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:50

Yeah, that's right where I'm at. Yeah, using using a phone charger is probably not gonna get that for you.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:55

No, I I actually have a tape at home.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:58

I just haven't We could have done it, but we didn't have a tape measure to measure the rope with.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:02

I think as for me, I'm I'm in York right and I'm just getting ready to start the uh commandery part.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:12

That's good.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:13

That's good.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:14

That's the last one, right? Yeah. Because I'm not York Wright. So Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:18

It's actually one that our past grandmaster, that's a member of our lodge, it it used to be, my understanding, custom in our lodge that if you were if you were the master of the lodge, you had to be York Wright before that.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:32

Oh if you if you go York right, you get the you get the fourth degree. Yeah, you get the fourth degree. And you you don't have to take the fourth degree before you go into the master's degree. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:46

You don't have to get the past master's degree. But you still have to go to the past master's degree, at least in Ohio.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:51

You have to go to the past master's company to make them happy. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:56

In Indiana, they have a s a separate past master's degree for. York right than they do for becoming a master.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:02

Yeah. Same in Ohio.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:05

Ish. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And but you get the fourth degree also in Scottish right.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:13

I've already had that, I think, too.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:14

A lot of opportunities for that one.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:16

There's a lot of opportunities for a lot of them. Yeah. To be honest with you, but but they each have their own independent wealth that they bring to your knowledge base. And I would recommend both, really. I mean, eventually. Yeah. You it's hard to do them all. It's hard to be active in all of them.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:43

Yeah, it's easy to get in. It's hard to be active.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:46

I I I tried to be active in in both for a while, and it just didn't work out. Because life got in the way.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:00

I I I think I did York Wright mainly because it was recommended to me as being a better degree to prepare you to be the master.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:11

Well, not only that, you know, you do you have to be you have to proclaim to be a Christian. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:18

In order to be York Wright.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:23

So I think that actually helps us change gears a little bit too. You know, we we've gotten through, I think, you know, kind of your y'all's backgrounds with masonry now. Now we want to dive in, I think, to some of the the deeper aspects.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:38

Yeah, a little bit more philosophical. Look at the look at the fatherhood. Look at, you know, it's a Father's Day episode.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:46

So don't worry, you'll get to turn the tables on us at some point. Oh, that's a terrible idea. I know.

unknown 1:29:51

Don't do that.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:54

Oh, I just get to laugh a lot.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:57

That happens to me quite frequently, getting laughed at a lot. There's gonna be awkward silence in me just hanging my head. What a moron I was. All right. So one at a time, obviously. Jim, I know you said your father-in-law was a Mason, but your father was not a Mason. My father was not. And I know my grandfather was not a Mason. So, you know, through the benefit of hindsight, were you raised to kind of value the qualities that make a good Mason?

SPEAKER_05 1:30:30

Oh, absolutely. My my sisters, my brother and I, we talk about this a lot, especially around Father's Day, which is also pretty close to my dad's birthday. And, you know, things like honest days work for an honest day's wage, faith, live in such a way that you you would be glad to know you value your money, help others. I mean, I can just go on and on about the different lessons that my dad taught us that you know, if you join Mason, you're gonna learn those exact same things.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:11

So what about you, Dad? Any anecdotes from grandpa?

SPEAKER_04 1:31:16

Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, he he he raised us to be he and mom raised us to be good people. We weren't they weren't necessarily really religious. We went to church some. Dad never went, but that was because he was he was in church a lot when he was a kid and he didn't like it. So he just didn't force us to go. But mom went and she'd take us boys. And of course we didn't have a clue what we were hearing or doing, and you know, it was looking back on it, it was just something that we had to get up early to go do, you know, and I don't know that I got a heck of a lot out of it, other than the fact that I did get a little bit of understanding about it, not much, but I do recall having one there's one episode in my life that that my father really made an impression on me because was the day that I lied to him. I didn't think that belt would ever stop. I never lied to him or anybody else again.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:41

But he got his point across.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:45

It's always the conversation afterwards where it kind of sinks in.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:49

That conversation had to wait a while.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:54

Yeah. My my dad was a lot the same way. It I mean, there were consequences to your actions. Definitely. And then we talked about your actions.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:06

Yeah. After after all of it had kind of receded. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:11

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:12

And calm and quiet had replaced the torment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:19

Walk a straight line, though. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:22

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:23

I mean, there's a there's a lesson there. It might have been a hard one, but the lesson is how you I don't think it was the wrong lesson.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:29

Right. No. To this day. I I I think that that was probably the best punishment that I could have ever gotten to get my attention and put me down the right path.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:43

Boys are hard. I I say that having some of my own. Girls are harder, trust me. I didn't I wouldn't wish that on anybody.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:52

Girls are harder in a different way. Yes. Boys will push you in ways Well, I can understand that you understand it. Right, right. I don't understand the girls.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:01

I don't understand the girls and and and they frustrate me.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:05

If anyone ever tells me they understand them, then they they need to meet your father in his belt.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:15

Yeah, because it's a lie. It's a lie. Yeah, I don't think who is it that said I wish I could give credit. There's a there's a fairly famous quote out there that women women aren't meant to be understood, they're meant to be loved. Fairly accurate.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:31

Yeah. What about the silent lessons? Kind of those leading by examples. Dads teach you anything without sever ever saying a word.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:43

Can't count those.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:46

Anyone, anything that really stands out? Kind of the virtuous ones. The Masonic life.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:53

I I guess it's a story. He never said anything to me. I had a paper out when I was nine years old, you know. They they the the the kid that was carrying probably the worst part of town quit. And so they figured they'd give it to the nine-year-old because you know, nobody else would take it. And I had a customer who hadn't paid for like seven weeks. And, you know, you don't if if you've ever been a paper kid, you understand that you buy your papers and then you get paid by your customers, you know, and you basically then you pay your bill and and you get what's left. And this customer hadn't paid me for like seven weeks. And my dad said, Come on. And we went up to that door and he had a talk with them. They paid me. But that was my dad standing up for me and showing me this is what you gotta do. You know, as a as a kid, you go up to these adults and say, You owe me. But you know, my dad says, No, you owe this this, you got the papers, you have to pay for it. And he was teaching me how to interact in a responsible way and still get my point across. It was it was it was a good lesson.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:19

Obviously, yes. Yeah. I've actually been on some truck rides with you similar to that when you first started the business. Some of them weren't quite that nice. But I that's probably why I was in the truck.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:38

Anything from grandpa? He was just constantly keeping after us to make sure that we you tell somebody you're going to do something, you keep your word. Your word is your your word is your bond, your bond is you. And you will never be anything but your bond.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:58

I don't know this, but one of the questions I had prepared was, you know, what what lesson shaped you the most? And my guess is it's probably that one for you.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:08

I have been known to do very large deals on a handshake and look at somebody in the eye and worry about paperwork later. And it's bit me a couple times.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:23

But not because you balked on it.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:25

No.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:27

No, I've I've I've finished jobs that I've had to cash in retirements to in order to finish.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:40

Because of mistakes that've been done by my me or my people. And it's it's it it hurts. It takes years to get over, but you you don't leave something undone that you said you would do ever.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:00

Yeah. I I figured as soon as you said that, that would be your answer. That's the one that shaped you the most. Jim?

SPEAKER_05 1:38:08

It's a lot along the same lines, and and Chris will vouch for this. There were very few things that I ever promised him. Because if I tell you it's gonna happen, then it's gonna happen. And so, and that's what I would always tell him. If I promise you, you know it'll happen. And I didn't do it that often because, you know, hey, we're gonna try to go someplace, but I can't promise you. But that I got that from my dad in terms of if he told me something, I knew I could trust it. And I always tried to be that way with with my kids.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:49

So it's actually something I do as well with mine. Uh I I've unfortunately uttered the wrong words before and had the weather go a different direction and disappoint. And that's something you learn as a dad only once. So yeah, I'm a little bit more careful with how I I phrase those commitments because of it. But no, I I that's a good one.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:15

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:17

You know, I think this kind of all rolls together, too, with this question is you know, what role do fathers play in the transition from boyhood to manhood? And do you see connections between being a good father and being a good brother in the lodge?

SPEAKER_05 1:39:37

If you're not a good brother in the lodge, you'll never be a good father. I I I don't I don't believe you can be. I would agree with that. Yeah. It in the lodge, you know, your word is your bond. In the lodge in the lodge, these are your brothers. This is your this is a family. And I don't think you can I don't think you can be a bad brother and be a good father. And vice versa. I don't think you can be a bad father and be a good brother.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:11

I don't I have never seen that. I've seen bad parents be Masons, but I don't know how they were that in lodge because I wasn't a Mason at the time. Right. And so I can't I can't speak to that. But I I I agree the sentiment is correct. Yeah. In my in my brain, I can't see it any other way.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:37

Trevor Burrus, Jr. Yeah. Chris will know I'm a I'm a person of absolutes. I'm a very black and white person. And and I just don't see how you can do it. I don't.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:48

The little bit of pushback I would offer is only that people can be two-faced. That is unfortunately a reality. It's true. Trevor Burrus, So you might have a different person at home than appears in the lodge. But if somebody's being true to themselves, I would tend to agree with you, Jens, because this is a volunteer organization.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:04

But you can't live this life a lot. You can't live a lie and be active here. You can you can be a visitor, you can be someone who shows occasionally and and get away with it, but you are not going to get here come in here and take a job where you have to be here every day and and be dependent upon and and not have that show up.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:33

I want that to be true, but their history's full of anecdotes of people of people showing up to loved ones' funerals and finding out they have a half family from you know two states over. So that's again, I'm not trying to be pedantic or be true difficult. But does that make them a good brother then in the middle of the street? You know what I'm saying? Well, they're likely being dishonest. Yeah, so I think that's kind of where they go.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:58

Yeah. So I think that's kind of to their point, though, too, is that to be a good brother, you do have to have this they're kind of one and the same. They really are.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:09

It's the same qualities.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:10

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:11

Same qualities, it's the same character.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:14

Well, it fatherhood to me at least is is it's on a little bit higher of a pedestal because while this is a volunteer organization. But and not that not that we don't play a very important part in it, but it's the responsibility at home for the kids is very different. That is integral, right? Like that's the priorities. Yeah. But I but I agree. The the qualities themselves, tons of overlap.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:45

Well, and I think with that too, you know, as you think about, you know, as as you've raised, you know, obviously both of you have raised a boy, at least one. What what lessons can Freemasonry teach about that journey from youth to mature adulthood that you, you know, maybe you unconsciously even used as you were raising us two hellraisers over here?

SPEAKER_04 1:43:12

I would say my journey was probably a little bit rougher around the edges than you can imagine raising him.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:20

Oh, I don't know. I can imagine myself. And I think Kim and I are pretty similar.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:27

No, it's he he he went with me on things that he probably shouldn't have gone. His first camping trip, we it was eight degrees on the on the third of March and six and six inches of snow. And how old was I for that? Eight.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:46

I was gonna say it was under ten. Yeah. Fun fact I made a very strong argument that I thought was based in fact that I should in fact not take off clothes in order to put on thermal underwear. Because if I took off clothes, I would be colder. It's fair. I I lost that argument and also learned something.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:12

He was freezing, and I said, You've got to take your clothes off to put the thermal underwear on. No. I was a very eloquent eight-year-old.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:23

This sounds so familiar.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:27

We were tent camping with virtually no heat. We should, there's no way that that was a responsible thing for me to do, but that's what I was doing.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:39

The mummy bag was great. I slept fine. Yeah. It was yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:44

It was once you got in the long underwear. Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:48

I had to lose that fight first.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:52

There were times I swore between Chris and I, one of us was not going to survive. But but I'll tell you, he's he's grown into a great man. He really has. I'm proud of him.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:05

Oh, geez. Everybody can see I'm well, I am colorblind, but I'm probably as red as that solo cup over there.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:11

So I know you got a purple cast.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:17

It's the hat. Yeah. It probably is. Boy, that that threw me off just a second there. So yeah, I following up with that too, I think, you know, history proves that, you know, again, our ritual has been integral as a part of human society and development of you know thousands of generations. Minus that, you know, particularly towards the rites of passage, does masonry preserve something about manhood that you know modern society is maybe cast to the wayside?

SPEAKER_02 1:45:52

Yeah, brotherhood.

SPEAKER_05 1:45:53

I mean, our rituals preserve our brotherhood at a time where society's trying to remove any any semblance of masculinity or or positive male models, you know, role models. Masonry teaches that. I mean, it just does. And, you know, to be a good mason, you have to be a good man. And and then you to be a good father, you have to teach your kids, your your son to be a good man. And it's I always told him he didn't come with an instruction manual.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:31

He was no, we had to we had to learn by trial and error. We did.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:36

Yeah, that's still happening. Just want to go on record. Mine didn't come with one either. Yeah, my newer models know.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:44

I get I get a few phone calls once in a while.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:46

It's more difficult than building IKEA furniture.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:50

Yes. And since and since my grandson is seven years old, the the previous story when you were eight years old, can you imagine Connor being on that trip in one?

SPEAKER_00 1:47:03

Yeah, I'm trying to actually take him primitive camping this summer. I don't think I'm gonna do it over the winter months because I don't know that I have the patience yet.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:12

You know, the funny thing is, I mean I didn't have patience, I had beer.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:17

Hearing that story, I think your three-year-old would probably survive. Oh, he's he's the best among us. Yeah. He could. He could. He'll club, he'll club something to death and eat it. It'll be fine.

SPEAKER_04 1:47:30

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. If there's something left over in the garbage, he'll grab it. It's not a problem.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:37

Absolutely fearless. Absolutely fearless to a fault.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:43

But no, I think, I think that's what masonry teaches. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:47:48

And and you get that, you get that in all walks of life and in being raised, but it's reinforced here. Yes. In this lodge. Not only that, it's it's it's brotherly love. Yeah. It's it's it's it's the the relief. Well, and truth. Yes. Yeah. It's it's it's all those things bundled up.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:12

From a purely ritual standpoint, and maybe I'm reading into it too much, but you know, as Chris alluded to, we've got thousands of generations before us, right? And and for the largest part of human history, we were tribal. And there were there were rites of passage. There was there was quite literally a moment when you were a child, you would go through some type of trial or tribulation, and you were a man, period, right? Right. We don't have that. Specifically in this country, it's very difficult.

SPEAKER_04 1:48:40

Well, there that that's probably the last ones to do that were probably Native Americans.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:48

Here, yeah, on the North American continent, of course.

unknown 1:48:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:51

The closest we come is getting your driver's license.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:56

I I will never forget the first day Chris had his driver's license. He was a swimmer. So, you know, 5 30 in the morning practices, and I'm having to take him. The first day he has his driver's license, he drives to practice by himself. And I didn't have to get up.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:17

Well, that was that was twofold.

SPEAKER_05 1:49:19

Yes. That was a rite of passage for both of us. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:24

Yeah, exactly. My I guess my point with the arrival though was it it we tend to it comes in like increments. Yeah. You don't have a you as as a man, you don't have a moment, right? Sixteen, you're driving. Eighteen, you're you're legal, you can vote, but you can't do anything.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:43

You can join the army. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:44

But you you can't have a drink with friends. I think a pack of smoke. I think, yeah. When I was 18, you could. Yeah. Right. You could buy three, two beer, not now. Right. I think I think cigarettes even are off the table. It's 21 now, I think, in a at least. Renting a car. That's twenty five. And and now with the government being involved in absolutely everything, your own health insurance isn't even until 26. Yeah. I don't, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but what I think about what I think is interesting about masonry, knowing what every man has gone through, you know, bef from a from a age of maturity perspective, is that you come in, you get your entrepreneurs degree, and you're a brother. Right. You come in, you get your master mason degree, and the whole lodge is open to you. Yes. There's it it's it's very it's very short. It's more of that rite of passage, if you will, than it is kind of tapered and just kind of metered out piece by piece to you. Uh I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 1:50:48

No, I like where I like I like that. Yeah. Well, along with that, it it it it's it's the whole death and rebirth situation is that that that's the the oldest story that ever was.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:51:01

And and you know you even your even your old thoughts have to die before the new ones can replace them. Yeah if you if you change the way you think. I mean you you it it's it's death and rebirth.

SPEAKER_05 1:51:17

Death and rebirth. I think one of the things the lodge teaches us too is that we're all equals in the lodge. You can be you can be, you know, as rich as Elon Musk. You walk into Lodge, you're just a brother.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:51:33

I I don't want to say just a brother, but you're you're just a brother.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:37

But it's there's a level, there's a levelness to that playing field that is not out there on a cultural.

SPEAKER_04 1:51:45

Well, that's that's the part that's so cool about walking into that lodge room is that other than the fact that the master holds the gavel and can stop the meeting at any time, everybody in there is equal. As long as you don't argue or break the rules, you can have your say. Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:20

But you do have to listen. And for the most part, I all of the other qualities that we've talked about. What I like about it is I think you can look across the room at somebody that you're maybe having a spirited debate with and know that they want the same thing as you, which is the best thing for X, right? They just maybe have a different perspective on how to get there.

SPEAKER_05 1:52:40

Right. And and that's something we teach our kids.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:44

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 1:52:45

Is this how you interact with people?

SPEAKER_04 1:52:50

Well, my wife and I have that same argument every day. I'm serious. I mean, I I'm a very logical person. I I do one, two, three, four, five. She's very artsy. She's she's an artist, and and she will randomly just wander over to a point and do something, and then wander somewhere else and do something else. We usually end up at the same place, do we not, Matthew?

SPEAKER_02 1:53:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:53:24

But I have to get there and then wait on her because she's still meandering off in the weeds somewhere before she decides to come on over to the point where she was actually ultimately going to get there anyway.

SPEAKER_05 1:53:39

And sometimes they go straight from one to ten.

SPEAKER_04 1:53:42

And then back to three.

SPEAKER_05 1:53:44

Like, why did you hear yet?

SPEAKER_00 1:53:48

Yeah. I think every man who listens to this is gonna relate in some way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:53:59

But we we we discussed this, and she we're in agreement. That's the way it works. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:06

As long as everybody's expectations are where they need to be, there's probably not a problem.

SPEAKER_04 1:54:10

As long as we can get to a point where we agree, it doesn't matter. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:15

You know, as we change gears a little bit talking about, you know what, you know the lessons in manhood that masonry have kind of taught, you know, looking at the father parable in Freemasonry, you know, really in your own words, describe, you know, what do you see as the roles uh and responsibilities of a good father? Has that, and and and I guess has that question changed as you've gotten older, or has that answer changed as you've gotten older and how?

SPEAKER_04 1:54:49

Go ahead, Jim. Oh, thanks. It's easier to follow than any.

SPEAKER_05 1:54:56

It has changed so much. When you're a fur, you know, first a dad, you really think, hey, you need to do this, you need to do this, you know. And when they're little babies, you know, they they really have no choice. They do what you tell them, or you know, they do what you do with them and things like that. And as they get older, you just have to realize that you have to let them go a little bit. And as they get older, it becomes more, and as they prove themselves, it becomes more and more. And really that's that's the way it is in the lodge, is that you know, the more you learn, the more you're willing to take on, the the older you get in your Masonic walk, you know, then you can start to do different things. And and you just have to kind of let people do it, make their mistakes and learn and help them along the way. And, you know, uh we like with you, I saw the biggest growth in you when I would let you do things. And yeah, you didn't always do them right. And so we had to talk about that afterwards. And sometimes it was, oh boy, did he mess up. And sometimes it was, hey, you know, that was really great. What could you have done better? You know, or hey, that was really great. Do you mind if I can do that? You know, things like that. But as you got older, the hard part is letting go. And I think in a lodge, it's it's kind of that way. You know, you hear about the old past master stories and you know, things like that. That that there's a certain amount of of letting go and letting people grow into what they do, and you know, letting your kids grow into what they do and becoming good, responsible, good decision makers, good kids, good adults.

SPEAKER_02 1:56:56

Hmm.

SPEAKER_01 1:56:57

It's interesting. I I picked up a little bit on that with when we interviewed Worship Brother Art Sterling, and towards the end of that interview, when he said, This isn't my lodge anymore, this is your lodge now.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:13

Yes. And I'm I'm trying to look at this through the lens of a man with younger kids. And I'm because I'm the only one sitting at this table without kids, so yeah. I'm trying to like I don't this is I'm gonna put something on a pedestal that I don't know that I always meet, right? But uh on a philosophical level, what I want to do is essentially give them enough of a a leash, if you will, a leash that is as long as their maturity is. Yes, right. So my what we talked about my feral three-year-old, right? Like this is a kid that I have to hold his hand in a parking lot, right? Because he'll dart off. And pee on something. Possibly that. It is definitely that, seeing my dad shake his head. Yeah. Whereas with my seven-year-old, I can reason with him a little bit more. There's more maturity there, and I can say, look, I want you to stay, I want you to stay close to me, right? And I want you to look both ways. Yeah. I don't have to have actual physical contact with you anymore. You're capable of this.

SPEAKER_05 1:58:17

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:58:18

Right. And that's so I I guess from a roles and responsibilities perspective, you know, provider, protector, kind of almost teacher, if you will, though I don't know that I love that term. Guide. But yeah, guide, guide is a good one. Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 1:58:34

It is a teacher. And your kids will look at you and what you do as their biggest example.

SPEAKER_04 1:58:43

It's not only a teacher, it's a mentor.

SPEAKER_05 1:58:45

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, our responsibility is to grow our kids up so that they can leave the house and be good functioning adults and be good people in the world. In the lodge, our responsibility is to grow those inner apprentices into good master masons who then can go out and you know and take over the functioning of the lodge.

SPEAKER_00 1:59:10

And that actually comes full circle to what Chris was saying because that that was a hallmark moment for me for somebody like Arthur Sterling to say, hey, this is your lodge now. That was that was big.

SPEAKER_01 1:59:20

Well, and especially given how much he's put into this and still takes ownership of it for him to say, This isn't my place anymore. This is your place.

SPEAKER_04 1:59:28

Well, he understands that the the torch needs to be passed.

SPEAKER_00 1:59:32

Yeah. Well, going back to my lead analogy, right? The leash, if you will. Right. That that's a lot of rope. Yeah. That is a lot of rope. Well, maybe no rope, which is just wild.

SPEAKER_05 1:59:42

It just depends.

SPEAKER_01 1:59:44

Well, and to come from him, too. I mean, it was one of those it was one of those moments where it's like, oh wow, this is real. He's like, you guys are now the old guys of the lodge. I mean, he, you know, I I can remember that. It it was a very what was the feeling that I I don't even know what the feeling I had with that was. Yeah, it it hit very hit powerfully.

SPEAKER_05 2:00:07

Yeah. Just remember, you're trying to make that impression with your kids.

SPEAKER_04 2:00:13

Well, and that's that reminds me of of a time.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:17

First time I I gave the fellowcraft lecture in lodge. And I practiced for a year before I gave that year that lecture. And I thought, man, I nailed it. I bloody nailed it.

SPEAKER_04 2:00:38

And Arthur came up to me afterwards and he said, You missed this word here, and this word here. And I was so insulted, and I was upset. And somebody else came up to me, far old, far wiser than I, and said, Did Art critique you? And I said, Yes. And I started to say something derogatory.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:12

And he said, take it as a compliment. He said, take it as a compliment. And I said, What do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_04 2:01:26

Arthur thought you were that close to perfect that he could correct you and you could be perfect. Had it been any, had it been far enough from the mark, he wouldn't have offered critique.

SPEAKER_00 2:01:45

That's in line with his personality. Yeah. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 2:01:48

I had never had never dealt with that before.

SPEAKER_00 2:01:52

Yeah.

unknown 2:01:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:01:54

But it's especially after a kind of a seminal moment like that, it it would be hard to take that kind of criticism when you're that near it. Yeah. I felt like I'd been kicked in the Well, but but to have but to have somebody reframe it though, right then and there. Yeah, right there. Exactly. You didn't have to sit with that for any length of time. Exactly. Awesome.

SPEAKER_04 2:02:12

Yeah. That was great. That was great. And I can't even remember who told me that. But but I was glad that they offered that bit of information.

SPEAKER_05 2:02:22

Yeah. And and just remember, you get pushback in the lodge. That's okay. You get pushback from your kids. No, I never did that. I was a perfect angel. No, you get pushback from your kids, and that's okay to a point. And it's same in the lodge until it crosses that that line of being pushback versus I'm just being an idiot.

SPEAKER_03 2:02:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:02:49

Same with your kids. Pushback versus I'm just being an idiot. You know, tell me why you feel that way, you know. And and I probably wasn't very good at that.

SPEAKER_04 2:03:00

I definitely wasn't because I started Matthew was born when I was 21 years old.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:03:06

I mean, I got married in April. I got bought a new truck in May. I bought a house in July, and he was born in September.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:18

His blood pressure was 210 over 190.

SPEAKER_04 2:03:26

And I mean, I went from foot loose and fancy free to two mortgages, two car payments, and a child in five months. And, you know, it you don't have a chance to gradually grow up. Yeah. But I did it to myself. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:03:55

Sometimes that trial by fire is good. It's the only way I work. Yeah. Yep. Are there any lessons you've learned in your Masonic journey that you wish you would have known when like Matt and I were growing up?

SPEAKER_04 2:04:09

Oh, lots and lots of them. Absolutely. Lots and lots. I can't put a finger on any of them right now, but I can tell you that there are lots.

SPEAKER_05 2:04:19

Had I started Lodge when I first thought about it, I'd have been a better dad. There's no doubt about that.

SPEAKER_04 2:04:26

I think my journey was a little different. I had to be I had to learn to be a dad before I could be learned to be anything else.

SPEAKER_05 2:04:35

Yeah. I mean, that's fair. It's it's the hardest job in the world.

SPEAKER_00 2:04:42

Yeah. Is there anything about the manner of delivery? Right? So Masonic ritual. We put a lot of lessons in our lectures and charges. Well, more lectures so than charges. Is there anything that fathers can leverage from that kind of teaching, that manner of teaching? For those more, I guess, hallmark life lessons, if you will.

SPEAKER_02 2:05:12

The power of allegory, for instance.

SPEAKER_05 2:05:21

I think it's the lesson of learning to think things through before you do something. Yeah. I mean, how many times is a dad, it's like, no, do this. And did they learn anything? Yeah, they learned that dad told me to do it this way. Instead of teaching them.

SPEAKER_04 2:05:40

Here again, that's where giving them the rope to make mistakes. Yeah. As I do with my employees on a daily basis. I mean, they they they make a lot of mistakes. Yeah. And, you know, that's part of growth. Without mistakes, we don't learn as as human beings. And, you know, you have to feel the waters before you actually grow and learn as a person. And you have to be tolerant of that to a degree. But you have to also have some reality checkpoints to hold everything from the crumble point where everything just comes crumbling down.

SPEAKER_00 2:06:28

So you both raised boys and girls.

SPEAKER_04 2:06:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 2:06:33

Have you found any distinction? Like because what you just said was very poignant, right? Like that that was but I in my mind, and I'm trying to, you know, the benefit of hindsight watching my younger sisters grow up. I'm wondering how much of that was more true for boys or more true for girls versus the other sex.

SPEAKER_04 2:06:54

For me, you were easy to raise.

SPEAKER_00 2:07:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:07:09

The girls were different. They they think differently. They have different priorities. They have different things that they do.

SPEAKER_00 2:07:19

But if you can remember And and the reason I'm asking is very very specifically around the mistakes, right? Because a boy mistake is very different from a girl mistake.

SPEAKER_04 2:07:30

Well, they are they are, but you have to watch and see what mistakes you allow them to make.

SPEAKER_05 2:07:37

Right. And and the consequences are the same, whether the mistakes are different or not.

SPEAKER_00 2:07:52

We're dumber.

SPEAKER_04 2:07:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 2:07:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:07:55

No, no, no, not dumber, more adventurous. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 2:07:58

Yeah. And and that's kind of what I mean. Like there's a comparing five-year-olds, right? You're gonna have incredibly different scenarios of what constitutes a mistake, right? There's coloring on the wall, and then there's, hey, I'm I'm upside down and there's a knife in my mouth, kind of thing. Right? Between boys and girls.

SPEAKER_05 2:08:21

Exactly. But and I'll tell you, with Chris, you really had to correct him. Boys are gonna do it because they're they're just going to.

SPEAKER_04 2:08:38

And girls are gonna do it, but they're gonna sneak.

SPEAKER_05 2:08:41

Yeah. Yeah. And and and the difference is it's going to take a lot to make the boy understand that that's not acceptable. And and at least I found with my daughter, if I looked at her cross, she'd break down crying, she'd never do it again.

SPEAKER_04 2:08:58

Can I trade?

SPEAKER_00 2:09:02

I actually thought that might be coming. There was gonna be definitely be a quip at the end of that.

SPEAKER_05 2:09:09

But but I mean, that's the way I found it. And and so the way I disciplined them was very different. And and in ways, neither one of them thought it was fair.

SPEAKER_00 2:09:18

But but but it's responsive to the personality. Right. Yeah. Right. Well, that's the only way it can be, right? Of course. Well, I mean, if you want it to stick. Yeah. I still don't think it's fair.

SPEAKER_05 2:09:30

I didn't think you would. But no, I think coming back to the masonry part, I think masonry teaches us how to teach moral lessons. Because we're taught those moral lessons in ways that we wouldn't have thought of before, but are very powerful. That's true. And if we had learned those things earlier, we could have maybe used those with our kids.

SPEAKER_04 2:10:00

Agreed. I still think I would have struggled with the girls.

SPEAKER_05 2:10:07

I I struggled with a girl. I I won't say I didn't. Disciplining her was easier. Understanding her was much harder.

SPEAKER_02 2:10:18

Yeah, my oldest daughter. I would say.

SPEAKER_04 2:11:25

And I called the house just about the time she walked in from the bus. I said, What the hell did you do?

SPEAKER_00 2:11:36

She said, Nobody knows about that yet. I found your mole later in life, by the way. I found your mole. That's neither here nor there. On that front. Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah, that's fair. On that front.

SPEAKER_04 2:11:55

But I got a phone call that that happened.

SPEAKER_02 2:12:00

From somebody that was on that bus. So and she had no idea.

SPEAKER_04 2:12:09

So you know it was that was an eye-opening experience for her. That oh my god, he's got it wired.

SPEAKER_03 2:12:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:12:26

There were times I can remember where I I would go to my wife afterwards with my daughter and say, What did I say? What did I do? I don't know. What did I do? Now with Chris, I would go to my wife and say, You've got to let me do this. You know.

SPEAKER_00 2:12:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:12:47

You know, and it it was just so different. But I I still think that going back, we can learn to to teach our kids better.

SPEAKER_04 2:12:57

I I agree with that. I agree with that. It's it's but but I can tell you that I don't I'm not sure how much of a lesson I would have needed to help that.

SPEAKER_00 2:13:10

He's not wrong. I I mean the she's an adult now, I love her to death, but I I have memories, right? That they're there are bighorn sheep that have thinner skulls than her.

SPEAKER_04 2:13:23

And and she's tough.

SPEAKER_00 2:13:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:13:26

She was she was in a in uh and I hate telling stories about her on on a podcast, but I'm going to tell it anyway. She was not supposed to be up moving around in the house at night. And if she got up, she was supposed to come to her mother in my room and let us know that she was up and moving around. And I heard something moving in the house, and I listened and I couldn't hear anything.

SPEAKER_02 2:14:02

And I grabbed my gun and I went looking for the noise. I went to her room and her sister was in her bed, and she was not. And then I panicked. Where is she? And I heard something in the closet, and I opened the door, and there she stood.

SPEAKER_04 2:14:29

I said, What are you doing? I knew I wasn't supposed to be up, so I hid.

SPEAKER_00 2:14:35

This is eight feet from her bed. She could have just gotten back to bed. She's also not always the smartest.

SPEAKER_04 2:14:43

And I was like, Holy crap, you could have got shot. Why did you do that?

SPEAKER_02 2:14:51

Because I thought somebody'd taken you.

SPEAKER_04 2:14:56

And so we had we sat down and had a long talk over that one.

SPEAKER_02 2:15:04

You know, but it was like, holy crap.

SPEAKER_04 2:15:13

But while she was up, she had stepped on a piece of glass that she had broken a piece of glass.

SPEAKER_02 2:15:24

Two months later, she said, Dad, my foot hurts. And I looked at her foot, and she had a little big red bump there on the side. It was a pretty good size.

SPEAKER_04 2:15:38

So I took my knife out and I cut it open, and she's tough, like I said. And there was this white speck in there, and I got a pair of tweezers, and I and tweezers wouldn't fit over it.

SPEAKER_02 2:15:54

So I kind of pried it up and and I took a piece of white glass out of her side of her foot that was probably that big.

SPEAKER_04 2:16:08

And she'd walked on it for two months because she was doing stuff she wasn't supposed to do whenever she got it.

SPEAKER_00 2:16:16

Taking it to the grave. That's I mean, I'd I'd like to think that she's one in a million on that front, but there's probably plenty of strong-willed children out there like that.

SPEAKER_05 2:16:32

We used to say that if you opened the dictionary, you know, or Dr. Dobson's book, The Strong-willed Child, your picture would be in there.

SPEAKER_01 2:16:39

Yeah. That one? Yes. Okay. You can see that a little bit, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:16:45

I can't.

SPEAKER_01 2:16:46

You can't? No. Oh, I don't know. Maybe I've maybe I've gotten wiser in my old age. You you've mellowed.

SPEAKER_00 2:16:55

Little wisdom never hurt anybody. It's a good thing. Well, the beer helped when I got older, so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:17:03

Yeah. You know, knowing that, you know, at least like in our lodge alone, there are three, you know, three of our brothers that have sons under, you know, the year, you know, age of one. And, you know, what do those boys need to hear from their fathers, you know, thinking about like the morals or the virtues of Freemasonry and those critical components of fatherhood? What do they need to hear? And what do they need to be passing on to those sons?

SPEAKER_04 2:17:32

Just that. Just that. Every every righteous virtue that you that you have learned in Masonry, find a way to put that into their life.

SPEAKER_05 2:17:49

Well, and I'll tell you, a brother is a brother no matter what. My child, I love you no matter what. That's what they need to hear.

SPEAKER_00 2:18:03

Trying to I don't know that I have anything to add to that.

SPEAKER_01 2:18:06

I don't have anything to add to that.

SPEAKER_00 2:18:06

I'm trying to process that a little bit because I think that's I mean, I'm thinking about it from like the Masonic virtues, which mirror the cardinal virtues. And that's not something that is necessarily taught. That's something that is absorbed. Like that's something that you've kind of got to put out there for them to model as opposed to teach.

SPEAKER_04 2:18:26

Well, you model it, but you reinforce with allegory and with and and with lessons.

SPEAKER_05 2:18:35

And just with plain action.

SPEAKER_02 2:18:37

Yeah. And if they're wrong, demonstrate wrong.

SPEAKER_01 2:18:47

Plenty of that to go around.

SPEAKER_05 2:18:51

But but try to do it in a loving and gentle manner. You know? Yeah, you have to get the just like you deal with a brother.

SPEAKER_00 2:18:58

Yeah. At least for me, when the danger has passed, if if that's what's kind of precipitated, right? We'll go back to the the youngest in a parking lot running off, we'll say, right? Like I'm I'm going to respond fairly aggressively, mostly in fear. Right.

SPEAKER_04 2:19:15

But that's not where the lesson is learning. That's what I mean.

SPEAKER_00 2:19:18

When the but but when that has passed, right? Right. When you when when when the danger has passed and the adrenaline is down and it's less like immediate, that's when the conversation starts. Like, hey, you just almost ran out into traffic. Right. Do you do you understand?

SPEAKER_04 2:19:33

You have the example and you have and you have you have the you know what could happen, what could have happened, and and you don't want to do that, and this is why.

SPEAKER_00 2:19:45

And you know, well, dad daddy gave you a good yank because you were, you know, you were literally running into the road. Like that's why. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:19:56

Yeah. So yeah, that's hmm. There's a lot in that.

unknown 2:20:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:20:07

It's the modeling thing that kind of went to my head, especially with the virtuous stuff, like the virtues.

SPEAKER_05 2:20:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:20:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:20:12

So you you can't expect your kids to be something you aren't. Oh, well, and they can't just saying.

SPEAKER_04 2:20:19

Yeah. They can't understand a concept that they've never been introduced to.

SPEAKER_03 2:20:24

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:20:25

Yeah. That's very true. Yeah. Well, yeah. If you've never been exposed to something, you how are you expected to learn it? Well, you no, and and yeah, I don't want to come off like I'm being judgmental here, but it I understand there it's often coming from a place of ignorance. Yeah. It's like, hey, I haven't fallen off of a high thing. I didn't know I shouldn't be up there. Right. I never did that, did you? Oh God. I'm just uh yeah facetious. Okay, thank God. I was gonna say, do you know how many garbage bags I thought were good parachutes? That that was a lesson a lot. Yeah, that was a lesson I had to learn several times. Or four wheelers into a tried into a trailer. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:21:05

I only ran my bike into a tree once before I learned a helmet was a good idea.

SPEAKER_00 2:21:09

Yeah. That's a quick one.

SPEAKER_01 2:21:11

Yeah, it was a pretty quick one. That tree still has a dent.

SPEAKER_05 2:21:19

I don't know if that's true or not, but I so you only ran off the road once when you were learning.

SPEAKER_01 2:21:26

To ride a bike or drive a car.

SPEAKER_05 2:21:28

Ride a bike. To my knowledge, you never rode off the road in a car, but that's just to my knowledge, and I can neither confirm nor divine deny anything else.

SPEAKER_01 2:21:38

So I got nothing.

unknown 2:21:41

Fair.

SPEAKER_01 2:21:42

We'll keep it at that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:21:44

We're not even going to go down the van path.

SPEAKER_00 2:21:47

I look, I have slid on ice before, but that that's by no means I've been in I've been in the passenger seat when things were going sideways. So literally or figuratively. Yes. Okay. Like, hey, I don't think we're supposed to be in this cornfield. Uh with my van. No, not with the not with any vehicle of yours or mine. I was in the passenger seat, I repeat.

SPEAKER_01 2:22:24

Boy. I think this next one's yours. Yeah. Because I think this is a good one for you.

SPEAKER_00 2:22:29

So this was pre-planned, right? Less conversational, more pre-planned question, but I'm curious. How did it feel to see your son take the same obligation you once took?

SPEAKER_02 2:22:43

Pride.

SPEAKER_04 2:22:46

Also it's it's very it's a very real experience that you it's hard to describe how emotional it is and yet rewarding.

SPEAKER_00 2:23:09

I any one standout in particular? I have a feeling I know the answer to that question, but I'm curious.

SPEAKER_04 2:23:15

The first.

SPEAKER_00 2:23:16

The first, really. Okay. That would not have been where I put my money. The first is the one that breaks the ice. Yeah. I just know that I just know that you gave me my Master Mason obligation. So I th I figured that was gonna be the one that stood out the most.

SPEAKER_04 2:23:36

It does, but the first I got to watch closely.

SPEAKER_02 2:23:42

And I just didn't know that we'd get to that point. Okay. Because you weren't living here at the time. Yeah, that's true. That's interesting. Oh, you're gonna are you gonna ask me now?

SPEAKER_00 2:24:08

No, uh I mean, yeah, that was kind of my plan. Yeah, it's the reverse for you guys.

SPEAKER_01 2:24:14

Yeah, because yeah, I mean, and I've been I've talked about that quite a bit on on the podcast before, is that you know, our situation with with my dad and I is is different, where you know, usually it's sons follow their fathers, but father followed son on this one. And you know, I will echo a lot of what what Steve said is that there was a lot of there's a lot of pride, there's a lot of emotion, there was a lot of gosh, I I'm I'm struggling to put a word to it. As I did, yeah. There's a lot I you can't describe it. No, it's indescribable. You're you're seeing something that, and especially for us, you're seeing something that doesn't get seen very often.

SPEAKER_00 2:25:03

Well, you were a participant as well, weren't you?

SPEAKER_01 2:25:05

I was. I got to I actually was the one that got to raise him in his master mason degree. So as did I. Yeah, so you got to raise Matt. I got to raise, you know, my dad. And number one, there's nothing there's something about raising another, you know, anyone that's almost indescribable. But then your own, you know, I guess flesh and blood, for lack of a better word, is I'm struggling for the word. Maybe you've got it, Steve. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 2:25:39

Well, it's it's it's the want to have to have let them have the opportunities that have been presented to you.

SPEAKER_01 2:25:51

Yeah. Yeah. It's it's opening that door for them. It's it's the connection that you feel, right? Because again, whenever you have that connection of raising somebody, that's a connection that you never as Mark Craig says, brother daddy. Yeah. Yeah. It is very West Virginia. It is. Yeah. But but I get, I I I know exactly what he's talking about in that is that there is this special connection formed when you raise a brother in Freemasonry.

SPEAKER_04 2:26:25

Now, and that's especially special when it is a father, a son, a brother. Exactly. A biological brother. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:26:39

Someone that you were very close to already. Exactly. That's exactly where I was going, is that there is something that's even deeper that again, almost a primal thing where you you feel that and it's it's an indescribable feeling to have that. And that that to me is where again, I can't I can't describe what it feels like.

SPEAKER_00 2:27:02

Well, it's actually a decent segue into another question that I had planned, right? Because what we're what we're describing, or trying to at least, is almost a want for somebody to attain something or to feel something that we've felt ourselves.

SPEAKER_04 2:27:19

Well, you know, so and it's it's really it's really goes back to what I said earlier, something must die before it can be reborn. And that's part of the reborning process of of coming from a non-member, a non-mason, to becoming a mason and and the knowledge being opened to you and to be that gateway is more special.

SPEAKER_00 2:27:49

It's part of an identity for sure, right? And and and if you're gonna walk a virtuous path, there might be things that you need to leave behind. Absolutely. Yeah. And again, perfect segue because it's out, you know, what we're like I said, what we're what we're thinking is almost wanting something for somebody, right? And and it almost feels to me like that. I don't know that any one person can give that to another. It's something that they kind of have to find for themselves. So But you got to be the gateway. Right. Right. But what is it about masonry, I guess, that kind of does that? Is there something about masonry in particular that you wanted maybe for me, right? That you didn't think that you alone could do, that you needed the assistance of the brotherhood, you needed the allegory, you needed the story. Is it is there a way to pinpoint that thing?

SPEAKER_04 2:28:44

Does that make sense? For me, it was it was the reinforcement of all of the moral aptitudes that that I'd tried to teach you my whole life. And having a network of brothers who felt that same moral aptitude that could help you stay on that path and become more virtuous. Yeah. Part of the culture.

SPEAKER_00 2:29:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:29:20

Yes. And and and with that make your life better. Yeah. And your kids' lives better.

SPEAKER_05 2:29:31

Yeah. I like that.

SPEAKER_03 2:29:33

God willing.

SPEAKER_05 2:29:35

Okay, for me, it was a little different, but a lot the same. You know, even though we we have the reverse situation here, it's the realization that my son has realized a lot of those qualities. Yes. And then as I go on and I learn more to understand the qualities that he has learned, there's a lot of pride in that. And, you know, it's it's not pride in myself. No, it's pride in what he has accepted and learned. Exactly. And so, you know, even though it was reversed for me, there's that certain amount of, you know, the swelling of the chest.

SPEAKER_00 2:30:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:30:15

My son has done these things, and that's what I always wanted.

SPEAKER_01 2:30:21

You know, so now everybody's looking at me to say something profound, but I was actually going to tell a story just thinking about, you know, all of this, you know, I will never forget coming home from his master mason degree, because I actually got to play a role as well as not just raising him. I got to play, and for all the Masons out there, I got to play first base at his degree. And, you know, we go through it. You know, I put a little Ahia in the Indiana there because I had memorized it in Ohio. And I was like, that's close enough.

SPEAKER_05 2:30:58

I had no idea. He had no idea.

SPEAKER_01 2:31:00

So it was fine. But I apologized ahead of time. I was like, you're going to get a little ahaya in your Indiana. And they were like, that's fine. But anyway, we're driving home and you know, we're talking about it and stuff like that. And I go, I was like, when I grabbed you at first base, he goes, Wait a minute, that was you? I was like, Yeah, you didn't recognize my voice or anything like that. He's like, No, I guess I was just so caught up in everything that uh petrified.

SPEAKER_05 2:31:31

Your situation is so out of the norm and so out of what you expected.

SPEAKER_00 2:31:38

Well, not only that, but we do we do enough of the same things to give you a slight sense of complacency for that third degree. And then we're like, just kidding.

SPEAKER_01 2:31:50

Oh, yeah, I'll never forget. It was hilarious. I'm like, wait, no, are you serious? You didn't know that was me.

SPEAKER_05 2:31:56

Yeah. I mean, I I really didn't because again, you are so out of sorts at that point.

SPEAKER_00 2:32:00

Well, it it again, it's out of the norm, right? You you don't have uh the a wide base of knowledge, but you've now been through your interapprentice and fellow craft, you've been the first part of the Master Mason, and you're like, okay, I kind of know what's what I'm in store for. And then you're like, oh wait, no, I I have no idea.

SPEAKER_04 2:32:15

This is not only that, it it just grabs you up.

SPEAKER_00 2:32:18

Yeah, I mean literally grabs you up and swallows you up.

SPEAKER_01 2:32:22

You just don't know what's going on. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:32:24

Funny story. One of my one of my best friends from work actually came when I was raised, as well as my son. And they were talking, because we do dinner between sections, and they were talking at dinner. They said, Do you think he has any idea what's coming? No.

SPEAKER_01 2:32:43

True. They did ask me if he had any health conditions, and I was like, nah, he's good. Give it to him.

SPEAKER_05 2:32:48

Oh, and I'm telling you, they did. Thanks, Jeff.

SPEAKER_00 2:32:54

It's the only appropriate way. It's it's a rite of passage. It's fine.

SPEAKER_01 2:33:01

I guess kind of I don't want to say going back to the seriousness of what we were talking about, but you know, I guess this one's for you, you know, dad, and I and and for Steve too. But you know, you, you know, especially you coming to it a little bit later. Did you know even with grown children, did becoming a Mason make you a better a better father? And you know, if so, how did that, you know, how do you think that happened, or what do you think you gained?

SPEAKER_05 2:33:30

I I'm going to qualify it and I'm going to say I'd like to think it did. Because I'm probably not the best judge of that. The best judge of that would be you and your sister and my grandson, Grayson. And but I'd like to think it did. I think I'm I think I'm a lot more understanding. I think I'm a lot of those qualities that that we as as Masons learn. And and I and I think it reinforced some of the things that I did always try to teach, but in a much different way. And it's it's taught me to to express some of those things differently. So I'm going to give you a qualified, I sure hope so.

SPEAKER_00 2:34:18

I think that's fair. Yeah. We're also all our own worst uh judge.

SPEAKER_01 2:34:25

Yeah. Right? Yeah. So well, and then I guess to you know, for Steve too, did becoming a Mason make you a better father as you were going through it too?

SPEAKER_04 2:34:35

You have to remember that uh Matthew was probably what twenty four, twenty-five when I was when I was became a Mason.

SPEAKER_00 2:34:47

Hold on, Matt.

SPEAKER_04 2:34:49

I was forty-eight.

SPEAKER_00 2:34:51

And that would have made me twenty-six.

SPEAKER_05 2:34:54

The heavy lifting's done at that point.

SPEAKER_04 2:34:56

Right, right. He was he was on his own. Yeah, you know, and and the girls were pretty much on their own and and and and everybody was was I was done raising children at that point. We were it was it was in the uh point where you go back and try to correct some of the mistakes you made, getting them to this point. And and you know, but I would say it reinforced everything that I needed to do to try to right any wrongs that I had done during the raising. But I I think that there's no doubt that any time you put moral virtues into your life that it that it can't help but make everything about your life better. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 2:35:50

And look, I'm trying to look into the future, right? I'm I do remember what I was like in my mid-20s. And I was certainly certainly more likely to listen than I was a decade earlier. Right. Absolutely. I had I my my ears were a little bit more open and my opinions were a little bit more muted, right? And at that point, I think I was in a better place to kind of receive wisdom when it was offered. And I'm I'm hoping the same is true for my well, a decade earlier I fired you. Right when you fired me. But my but in seriousness, my my point is like I think I think that's actually a really good time because you've it's not that you weren't offering earlier, and I don't mean I mean the collective you, right? Dads generally. You're always offering what you can, the life lessons, the wisdom on all of those things. But just like you can't help anybody who's not ready to receive help. You can't you can't teach somebody who's not ready to be taught, right? So I think that was actually a good time for that that transition to happen. Because you're as you're learning these things, your kids are in a position to better receive them too when they're offered.

SPEAKER_04 2:37:04

And that that's exactly what happened.

SPEAKER_00 2:37:09

My sons are listening to this in 20 years. Your dad's not as dumb as you think he is.

SPEAKER_05 2:37:18

I've always said that yeah, when your kids hit about 16, you're the dumbest person in the world. Yeah. And that lasts until they're about 20, 21, 22, and then you start getting a little smarter.

SPEAKER_04 2:37:31

Actually, he did a little better now. I fired him at 16. And about 18 months later, he came back and he said, Dad, you had every right to fire me.

SPEAKER_02 2:37:50

I have done every crap job in the world since you let me go.

SPEAKER_04 2:37:57

Is there any way that you can see clear to put me back on as an employee? I said, would you like to start Monday?

SPEAKER_00 2:38:07

Even then I had grown up to do, and I know that. No, but that was but that was very big of you. That was a huge step. That was a big step, yeah. Yeah, that was that was definitely a big step.

SPEAKER_04 2:38:19

And we never had another problem.

SPEAKER_02 2:38:22

No.

SPEAKER_00 2:38:26

Pain and bad decision. Do that to you. That is so good. Why are you so dumb? Like teenage years. Uh it's actually a really good segue, though. We've been peppering you guys with questions, right? And it's getting late. So maybe we can keep the embarrassing stories to the to a minimum. But is there anything that you guys I know this is gonna get dangerous? It is dangerous, right? Let's turn the tables.

SPEAKER_02 2:38:54

Turn the tables a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 2:39:00

What could we have done differently as parents that would have made our made things better? I'm I'm serious, don't blow it off. Uh, that would have made things better because this is this is information that you can take.

SPEAKER_05 2:39:17

And anybody listening.

SPEAKER_04 2:39:19

And anybody listening and say, okay, is this is this something, you know, that I'm doing? Is this something that that I can that I can modify my behavior and and actually I don't know. This is a tough one.

SPEAKER_00 2:39:35

So it Well there there are There's a lot of qualifiers to this, right? Because it's not that I don't always qualify. It's not that I don't have advice. It's that I think two things can be true at once, right? Like I just I just talked about how important it is that somebody be ready and willing to receive sage advice when it's offered. That's not something that you can change. Similarly, I think people have nobody's gonna be perfect every day. That's just a hard reality. And if if somebody is maybe having a breakthrough moment and they're and that at that point in time ready and willing to listen, but the conversation has escalated to a point where it's kind of like beyond reason, you know what I mean? Pulling back from that brink. Does that make sense? Yeah. But you're you're not always going to be able to do that. This is this is a very situational-based thing. And I frankly don't have like an actual example that I can provide. I just know even in even in my short time as a father, it's like, why are why are we having this conversation again? Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_04 2:40:42

And but you're having that conversation because they haven't they have not reached the point where they're willing to learn that. Right.

SPEAKER_00 2:40:50

And and my my hope is that I'm able to it let's say that I'm just angry because it's the 17th time I've had that conversation on a Tuesday, right? Let's say that there's there's that moment of clarity in their eye where I can I want to be able to forget that it's the 17th time and lower my tone and like have that conversation to where it maybe sinks in a couple weeks earlier or something.

SPEAKER_03 2:41:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:41:15

But that's, you know, hoping for perfection.

SPEAKER_03 2:41:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:41:20

Yeah. Oh boy, everybody's looking at me for that answer now. I think, you know, I again, I I I I'm echoing a lot of what you say because again, I think there's a lot of context, you know, like to both of your points, we don't come with instruction manuals, right? Right. We didn't come with instruction manuals. We didn't come with a resource guide.

SPEAKER_05 2:41:42

We came with there's not even a fact.

SPEAKER_01 2:41:45

Yeah, there's not even a you know, a free will ask questions. I we came with a large bill, right? We came with a large bill attached from the hospital. So we were causing, you know. And a constant need for diapers. Yeah. So yeah, we were causing the financial whole, you know, the financial right from the get-go. I I think, you know, the the and again, I don't know, again, it's not like uh what would you have changed? I think it's just, you know, we have to be we had to be ready to receive the message. And big thumbs up for me. You know, that comes with the maturing process and you know, and the patience on the other end. The patience on the other end. And to your point, Matt, you know, talking about, you know, telling somebody for the 17th time on a Tuesday, don't, you know, don't do this or do that. You know. For me, I think it's just you know, for me, I again I I look at the gratitude of saying, okay, yeah, you didn't, you know, you didn't send me to military school for, you know, even though the threat was there many times to go to military school. Having been rolled once a few times. But you got paperwork filled up for my three-year-old. But it's but waiting on a check. It's it's it's for me, I would say that that that thing is, you know, have the patience. They're gonna get it at some time, you know, at some point. They may be the most strong-willed, the most thick-headed, the most stubborn person that you're gonna meet, but they're also figuring things out. Yeah, and we were figuring things out. We were figuring out very slowly, very slowly we were thinking figuring things out, but we were we were figuring out life, right? As that again, I'm not gonna try to get too sciencey, but as the prefrontal cortex starts to develop and it develops pretty slow. If you don't die before it does, you'll be all right. Exactly. But again, that that for us that it was it was developing, and we didn't see the advice. We're just like, oh, dad's being a jerk again, right?

SPEAKER_00 2:43:50

Yeah, well, it's also yeah, it's so weird being a kid because you have like virtually no life experience. But you think you do, right? Right. So the tools in your toolbox are very, very limited.

SPEAKER_01 2:44:02

You've got a rusty screwdriver and like half of a socket set with no wrench.

SPEAKER_04 2:44:06

Just like Jordan Peterson says, you have to live it virtually, otherwise you will die.

SPEAKER_00 2:44:10

Well and and well, not only that, but I mean you can't you can you can't forecast your life very far. I mean, you're you're looking out two weeks. Two weeks? Well, I mean, as a kid. Two weeks? Right. Whereas your parents are like, yeah, if you get the if you do that dumb thing that you're thinking about doing that you don't fully understand the consequences of, you're you're not going to college. Right. Right. And you're like, but it sounds fun. It's gonna be an awesome story on Monday. And you're like, yeah, well, your future is also Tuesday and beyond.

SPEAKER_01 2:44:41

Like so that's a good one. What other questions do you guys have for us? It's table turning time.

SPEAKER_05 2:44:51

Oh boy. Uh I mean that that's that's really the main question I would have. You know, what could I what could I have done different? I mean, I know I wasn't a perfect parent. I mean, far from it. But you know, it it it just goes back to I think patience is is so important and something I had so little of when you were younger.

SPEAKER_01 2:45:16

But well, and I earned some of that too.

SPEAKER_05 2:45:19

I'm not gonna lie. There's no doubt about that. I this is a kid who was strong-willed enough for something to do. We gave him a bucket of water and a brush and told him to scrub the concrete, right? The next thing we look over there, there are no bristles left on this brush. He has brushed them off. This is how strong-willed this child is.

SPEAKER_01 2:45:42

Low quality tools. But high-quality arms, look at that.

SPEAKER_05 2:45:50

So, you know, it's it's being able to read the room is a lot of it, and and understanding when patience could have helped and and when it was just beyond patience. And okay, you really do just need to do what I say. You know.

SPEAKER_01 2:46:08

And getting grounded many times when I said no.

SPEAKER_05 2:46:11

Uh, you did get grounded once or twice.

SPEAKER_01 2:46:14

A week.

SPEAKER_05 2:46:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:46:16

I was gonna say it seems very, very low.

SPEAKER_06 2:46:20

Sounds like a very low number.

SPEAKER_01 2:46:24

No, yeah. I mean, I uh these are good questions. Again, I I'm hoping for a few more, maybe and then they can really be about anything.

SPEAKER_05 2:46:32

I got one for you. Oh Lord. What do you see that your dad did that you would change for your kids?

SPEAKER_02 2:46:44

Oh, what did I see that dad did that I would change for my kids?

SPEAKER_00 2:46:53

Oh, this feels so judgmental. This science is in on tobacco use. That's something I would change for you too. But it's something definitely something I don't want to see.

SPEAKER_03 2:47:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:47:04

So that I think that's a fair answer.

SPEAKER_03 2:47:06

Yeah, I think it is.

SPEAKER_01 2:47:07

That's a very fair answer because again, you want to be there for them. You want them to be there.

SPEAKER_00 2:47:13

Yeah, somebody's got to earn enough money to get me at a good home.

SPEAKER_01 2:47:16

So I don't plan on going to a good one. I already told him he's gonna end up on one of those that you see on 60 minutes.

SPEAKER_00 2:47:22

So Brotherly love, relief, and truth in one sentence right there.

SPEAKER_04 2:47:31

I quit when you were 35.

SPEAKER_00 2:47:35

That's what I said. It feels judgmental. I'm not trying to be mean, but I I wouldn't want it for them.

SPEAKER_04 2:47:40

No, it's it's that was yeah, that was something I needed to do anyway.

SPEAKER_05 2:47:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:47:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:47:49

I mean, I ask you that question because obviously Chris doesn't have kids, so I can't ask him that.

SPEAKER_00 2:47:54

Yeah. I I think dad did a good job. I uh I mean, if that that's pretty low-hanging fruit.

SPEAKER_04 2:48:01

Well, I I'll guarantee you I made my share of mistakes and then some. But but I I can tell you that I've been very blessed and fortunate that all of my children have turned out very well and become productive members of society. And and I am so blessed, my wife and I are so blessed to have that that happen for us. You know, we got great grandchids, not great grandkids, but great fantastic grandkids. Fantastic grandkids.

SPEAKER_00 2:48:35

We have several years, God willing, before that becomes a concern.

SPEAKER_04 2:48:41

But but you know, that that is is is and we're blessed to have them all very close. Yeah. You know, at just like last week, Connor had a ball game and my wife and I went.

SPEAKER_02 2:48:58

We didn't talk to anybody, tell anybody we were gonna go. My ex-wife was there. My both my daughters showed up with their kid.

SPEAKER_04 2:49:14

One of them has children, and she brought him.

SPEAKER_00 2:49:18

And we filled the bleachers.

SPEAKER_04 2:49:22

Yeah. And we didn't and we didn't tell anybody, nobody knew that the others were coming, and we just all showed up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:49:28

I always think I always think it's cool when grandpa can come too, because there's four generations of men there.

unknown 2:49:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:49:33

And we do that. That's always that's always sweet.

SPEAKER_05 2:49:36

Yeah, he he had a ball the other night.

SPEAKER_00 2:49:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:49:39

And I'll have to echo that. Um, it's seeing your kids grow up to be good people that, you know, everyone genuinely would like to know. And, you know, it's it's golly, I I'd love to take credit for that, but I really can't, you know.

SPEAKER_04 2:49:59

Well, none of us can, right? Right. It's it's it's part of life, it's part of their struggle, it's part of their journey. And and, you know, well, we may we may be able to get them out the starting gate and kind of push them into one direction. Yeah, ultimately that journey is theirs. That's right. And you know, when the wheels fall off and they fall down, then we got to go pick them up and get them started again.

SPEAKER_03 2:50:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:50:22

But but other than that, there really isn't a hell of a lot we can do about it. That's correct. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:50:29

As much as we'd like to. Yeah. Yeah. And and sometimes the right answer is I can't.

SPEAKER_04 2:50:36

Well, and and and here again, you come back to today, you've got a whole generation of kids that somebody held them by the hand after they put them in the starting block and carried them to the next to the next point. And and they're unable to function in society today. Right. And and you need to have the wheels come off. You need to be able to get out there on your own and get those bumps and bruises and some of that, some of that uh grit. Well, and and you know, kids are kids are cruel. Yes. They can be. Yeah. And but but you need some of that to develop into your potential. Right. If you don't get that, you you don't get any pushback. You don't get any pushback, you don't know how to handle pushback. Right. You know, you I can protect you to the point that I can kill you.

SPEAKER_00 2:51:35

Yeah. Oh, you you're yeah, you're basically smothering them. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:51:40

You you you've stunted their growth as a human being and taken them out of society and made them unfunctional. Right.

SPEAKER_01 2:51:47

Iron has to be hammered sometimes to be turned into a knife.

SPEAKER_00 2:51:51

I at least with my tested by fire.

SPEAKER_04 2:51:54

Iron sharpens iron. That too.

SPEAKER_00 2:51:56

I I use the guardrail approach, right? And it's just a single lane for the kids, is kind of how I see it. I I'm not worried about oncoming traffic. I just want I want you to be able to brush up against the guardrail, right? And learn something. I'm not going to let you go over it. I'm not going to let you land in the ditch, but I'm going to let you brush the guardrail. That's kind of my approach.

SPEAKER_05 2:52:19

And that lane gets wider. Because they grow in wisdom.

SPEAKER_00 2:52:22

Yeah. That's that's the hope.

SPEAKER_04 2:52:26

Well, and and and I've seen a difference in them in growth just this year from last year. Yeah. I mean, about what, three, four weeks ago, we dug out your patio. Oh, yeah. I remember that saga.

SPEAKER_03 2:52:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:52:46

But the good part is is I pulled the bobcat into the backyard.

SPEAKER_02 2:52:52

I put the kids over there and I said, You see this? Stay away from it. It's gonna be moving, and I can't see you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:53:04

And you see those wheels? They the their tracks. They will crush you and you will be flat as a pancake and you will not be living anymore. So you stay away from there. When I get in the bobcat and it starts, you go sit over there and you stay over there.

SPEAKER_00 2:53:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:53:23

And they did all day long.

SPEAKER_00 2:53:25

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 2:53:25

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 2:53:26

A year ago, one of them would have been like, Hey, is there snacks in the cab? The three-year-old? Can I come up there? The three-year-old, right? And he probably would have just been eating something.

SPEAKER_05 2:53:35

Probably up there driving.

SPEAKER_01 2:53:37

I could have almost heard the three-year-old going, cool, a pancake? Where?

SPEAKER_04 2:53:41

No, but they they did really good. That's awesome. I'm now the adults were in the backyard watching and everything. But but but I'm just saying, they they didn't make any moves. They didn't make any moves toward toward that.

SPEAKER_00 2:53:53

And and for the most part, I can trust them that way.

SPEAKER_04 2:53:57

Well, and you know, that was one of the things whenever we first started. I what did I do? I put you in the cab. Yeah. Because you'd never been in. I said, look and see how much what my visibility is. None. Now, it's your responsibility to keep your kids under control.

SPEAKER_02 2:54:18

Yeah. And they actually listen fairly decent.

SPEAKER_00 2:54:23

Yeah. Maybe I am not doing that bad. I like that revelation right here at the end. Didn't even have to stake them down in the yard. Well, the three-year-old, maybe. He's something else. I love him. He's gonna listen this one day. I love you, buddy. Man, you're a handful right now.

SPEAKER_01 2:54:46

Well, we were both, you know, I guess they always say turnabouts fair play because I'm guessing both of us were a little bit of a handful.

SPEAKER_00 2:54:53

He's my comeuppins, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 2:54:55

Yeah, yeah. We were just a little bit of a handful. And I will say that, you know, there was Kilroy was here written in the pantry at one point. I will go ahead and admit that was this person sitting right here that wrote that.

SPEAKER_05 2:55:09

Thank you. I'll have your mother listen to this. Because to this day he still defends you.

SPEAKER_00 2:55:16

So I've heard this story. I heard it was in his handwriting.

SPEAKER_05 2:55:19

It's it's Kilroy was here in his handwriting. And I said, Chris, why did you write on the pantry wall?

SPEAKER_01 2:55:30

No, I didn't do it.

SPEAKER_05 2:55:31

And he said, I didn't do it. And and and his mother, ever so helpful, says, Well, you can't prove he did it. Did you see him?

SPEAKER_00 2:55:43

You're looking around your house, looking at your lock, remembering how many keys you've passed out. Like the suspect's list is pretty, pretty, pretty small right now.

SPEAKER_03 2:55:53

It's it is pretty bad marker on his hand.

SPEAKER_01 2:56:00

Oh no, no, no. I was like 13-14. Oh, yeah. No, it wasn't marker. It was like ink pen. Cursive? No, my you know my crappy handwriting. Yeah. Literally, there's only one person that could have been in the world.

SPEAKER_00 2:56:14

I love that this has been 30 years, probably. And your mom is still defending it. In spite of mounting evidence to the contrary.

SPEAKER_04 2:56:23

Mother's nurture.

SPEAKER_00 2:56:25

She knew it all.

SPEAKER_04 2:56:27

She knows it to this day, but she was going to save that beating.

SPEAKER_05 2:56:32

Mother's nurture, father's discipline.

SPEAKER_01 2:56:38

So yeah, weapon all my life. I will give you that satisfaction on this one. So thank you.

SPEAKER_05 2:56:46

I'll let your mom listen to it.

SPEAKER_01 2:56:48

What 31 years later, and I'll let you uh I'll let you have that one. So that's awesome. You know, I think we have, you know, as we wrap up our time here, there are you know three kind of fun questions that we always ask all of our guests when they come in. The first one is the Masonic ring. Is it points in or points out? And why?

SPEAKER_04 2:57:12

For me?

SPEAKER_01 2:57:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:57:16

You can wear both. The reasons that I learned for wearing it out was to demonstrate to others that you were a Mason. I wear mine pointing in to remind myself of the virtues that I swore to.

SPEAKER_05 2:57:40

I like that. Yep. And I'll just say on my ring, it's both because the Masonic symbols actually on the side and so they point both ways. No, I I that that's exactly right. Uh I would wear out because I want people to see that I am a Mason. And and by golly, if they see that I'm a Mason, I better act like one.

SPEAKER_00 2:58:04

What's yours? I forget. You really forget? I can't. I am I Are you a points in gay? I have I have done both, but I'm much more introspective and thus uh usually am points in. Like I I kind of am a person that needs that reminder. Like, hey, this is especially in hard moments, like when you doing especially doing what I do. Yeah. When you kind of want to maybe react a little bit more rapidly.

SPEAKER_04 2:58:30

Yeah, that makes sense. Kind of that's why I don't wear mine while I'm working. That's fair.

SPEAKER_00 2:58:37

That's fair.

SPEAKER_05 2:58:38

I have a Masonic license plate. I have to drive this.

SPEAKER_00 2:58:42

Oh, I would fail that test so often. Yeah, same. I cannot that just some of some of those drivers are just so bad. Look, this is more social commentary than anything, but this town and its circles, like, these people weren't smart enough to handle a four-way stop. So you just gave them the option to not stop at all and drive continuously around a circle. What did you think was gonna happen? Yeah. Like, anyways.

SPEAKER_04 2:59:10

Sorry, but that all came from the Northeast.

SPEAKER_00 2:59:13

Yeah, it did.

SPEAKER_04 2:59:14

I I don't get it. Uh first time I was in one, I was uh I had been 91 or two. I was in Massachusetts for schooling, and I got into a rotary and I freaked out. Look kids.

SPEAKER_05 2:59:32

Look, kids, big bed.

SPEAKER_04 2:59:34

Yeah, it's just wild. What the hell did I just drive through?

SPEAKER_00 2:59:41

You if you are not smart enough to handle a four-way stop, you're not going to handle the circle any better. That's just my anecdotal snap. Probably true.

SPEAKER_04 2:59:51

But the big part about Newark and the rotaries is when they started all this rotary nonsense. And it does work. It helps. It does help traffic flow. It helps congestion. No, it helps traffic flow.

SPEAKER_00 3:00:07

That's what I mean. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:00:08

Yeah. It it does. But up on Hudson Avenue, where Shields Crosses at the GBBA hall. And on up at the next traffic, it was they've one of them was a was a flashing light for a while in in both the eighties and nineties. They actually took uh our tax dollars and put three parking lot bumpers on a triangle in the middle of the road and made a rotary at both of those intersections. I took my wife down and drove around them and she said, Oh my God, are you serious? They lasted three weeks and they pulled them out of there.

SPEAKER_01 3:01:11

It's something else. And my next question is what is your favorite working tool and why? These these three questions are kind of like rites of passage.

SPEAKER_05 3:01:29

I I am I am going to go old school early on, and I'm going to say the the gavel, the common gavel.

SPEAKER_04 3:01:37

Ooh. Got a fan over here. That's exactly where I was going.

SPEAKER_05 3:01:43

Yeah, because that to me is the beginning of your transition.

SPEAKER_04 3:01:51

What a mason should be. All you have to do is listen to the working tools of the gavel.

SPEAKER_00 3:01:57

It should be in constant use in my mind. Yes. Like that's one that we're constantly working on. Never put it down.

SPEAKER_04 3:02:06

Divesting the the vices and superfluidities of life.

SPEAKER_05 3:02:10

That's if you can do that, you can do all the others.

SPEAKER_02 3:02:16

I like it. You know mine.

SPEAKER_00 3:02:19

I do. Are are you actually asking me? Yeah. Oh yeah, you're you're 24-inch cage.

SPEAKER_01 3:02:25

I am the 24-inch cage. So in the same lecture, just or same working tool for class, but a little different. You need that time management and the balance. I like the balance. All right, the last last of our usual questions that we ask at the end is what is your favorite lecture?

SPEAKER_02 3:02:45

The fellowcraft. The fellowcraft is the shortest.

SPEAKER_04 3:02:54

Not by much, yeah, but it is the shortest. And is packed with more information than both of the others put together.

SPEAKER_05 3:03:08

Yeah. The the second half of the fellowcraft is one of the most beautiful lectures I've ever heard. The liturgy?

SPEAKER_01 3:03:18

No, the in the entire theirs is a little bit different, but I know exactly what part. It's the same parts you're talking about in there too. But I think yeah, no, it's my favorite. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 3:03:28

Yeah, I I we we've got a unanimous decision then, gents, because yeah, that's that has been my been my favorite probably since my second year in, right? When I first kind of when I'd started digesting things for real, I guess. Yeah. Right? It really hit.

SPEAKER_01 3:03:48

I had a really good lecturer when I did mine. I had uh worshipful brother Phil McClellan. Yeah. And that was just beautifully done. And I it stuck with me and then all Phil did a good job. Oh, he always did such a great job, and it always stuck with me.

SPEAKER_05 3:04:02

See, I had worshipful brother John Matthews, and he does a great job. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:04:06

I remember it. I I can remember it. It was it was it was fantastic. Well, I know we're wrapping up our time here this evening, and boy, I know you know, uh both Matt and I are super appreciative for you both to, you know, well, you both being here, but also I think we're super appreciative for all of the everything in life. I don't know. I'm trying to find the right words to say.

SPEAKER_00 3:04:33

There there were times when I feel like you probably felt like you were beating your head against a wall. Some of it some of it got in. Yeah. And that patience and the example set are very much appreciated. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:04:46

And you know, I I can say that, you know, I think we we both love you both. And yeah, thank you for being here with us this evening. I, you know, hopefully there are a lot of guys out there that are going to take something very cool away from this and just the experiences with this.

SPEAKER_04 3:05:02

So Well, I don't think that I think you'd be hard pressed to find two young men that turned out any better than the both of you. Absolutely. And I would I would put that up against anywhere. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 3:05:20

Thank you. Thank you guys. We appreciate it so much. Happy Father's Day, Happy Father's Day, everyone.

SPEAKER_04 3:05:25

Yep. Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 3:05:36

Well, I can tell you that was an absolute blast to have both of our dads here at the podcast studio and get to interview them. You know, never in my wildest dreams did I ever think I'd be sitting in a room interviewing my dad on a podcast.

SPEAKER_00 3:05:50

Yeah, when the tables got turned, I'm not gonna lie, I was a bit nervous, but it ended up working out. It was a this is a really good question.

SPEAKER_01 3:05:57

There was a really good question. There are questions I'm glad did not get asked. Oh, uh by the hundreds.

SPEAKER_00 3:06:03

Oh, boy.

SPEAKER_01 3:06:04

By the hundreds. That could have ended up very dangerous very quickly. Yes. Thank good, thank the good Lord above. So, with that, this is gonna once again do it for us here at Beyond the Door. You know, we really hope you enjoyed this special Father's Day episode, and we look forward to connecting with you each month. Please help us grow our audience by subscribing to us on your Podcatcher of Choice, as well as sharing this podcast with your brothers, friends, and family. Did you enjoy this episode? Please leave us your feedback on your podcatcher of choice. Remember, we only want the good reviews. Actually, we only want a review.

SPEAKER_00 3:06:43

A review would be nice, but also a little bit of feedback, positive or negative, ideas even.

SPEAKER_01 3:06:49

No, I want I want the I want the positive feedback. I don't know if my ego could take the other.

SPEAKER_00 3:06:54

Certainly that is the positive is welcome, right? But uh if the listeners want some a new topic, for instance, I I wouldn't mind hearing it and doing some research on it and trying to bring them, you know, that education.

SPEAKER_01 3:07:07

Yeah, I wouldn't mind doing that either. So want to get in touch with us? Newark 97 is on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. You can also reach us via email at newark.97.logge at gmail.com. Until next time, stay safe. And as always, search for light in Masonry.